Advice/support required on possible PTS

[Unepuce]

Hi guys,

I am in that horrific place where I need to make the decision of fighting or letting a friend go. I need some advice...

My Chatouille is my oldest girl - she will be 2 years old around the end of the month. I lost her sister in January following an otitis - she died struggling for one last breath in my arms and I want to avoid going through this - for me AND for Chatouille - at all costs. Chatouille has respiratory problems, with very visible abdominal breathing. I can see she is not well - her hair stand up most of the time, and I suspect she doesn't sleep much anymore. I took her to the last Thursday and she is on Baytril/Doxy/Metacam - I do not see much improvement yet. These are the reasons why I am contemplating PTSing her.

On the other hand, she still is my Chatouille. I'm not sure she eats her blocks anymore, but her baby cereals (with meds) and ensure still go down easy. She got down the top floor this morning to the lower floor and was the first one to greet the blueberry baby food they all love so much. So she still eats and enjoy it, and she can still move around and up and down, go from floor to floor and even into the hammock. I also caught her grooming her man (my Picolo, the one on my avatar) and one of the younger girls this weekend, her hair is shinny and soft... and these are part of the reasons I am resisting letting her go.

On Thursday, my vet said she didn't see a reason to PTS her now, considering her symptoms, of course unless I insisted on it - which I did not do, I was so relieved tothat the question was dismissed altogether. But now, doubt is coming back and I am considering bringing her back on Thursday if the meds don't kick in harder (Thursday will be a week back on the meds and my vet works late on Thursdays - no one but her will be putting my Chatouille to sleep if it comes down to it.

What do you think? I one week back on the meds too soon to judge? Should I wait 2 weeks and let her suffer this misery that whole time if the meds end up inefficient? Should I ask to change to another combo? I am also afraid that when she goes, my beloved Picolo, now 25 months-old, will decide life isn't worth without her and go down the slope himself.

Help!!!

Unepuce fighting her tears (and mostly losing) at work...

 

[mamarat]

I'm so sorry. It's a hard decision to make but I would keep her on the meds a while longer. I've had oldies come back after a month on meds. I was going to PTS too but Jani is now 29 months and going strong with no meds at all. Good luck with your Chatouille. (I love her name)

 

[jorats]

I would hold off too. She's clearly enjoying some of her life like the food and her man. I'd give the meds another couple of weeks.
I know it's hard to watch them this way but if she's willing to fight then she needs you there with her. ((hugs))

 

[SQ]

Are the meds helping at all?
If not, you may need to try a different combo.
You may also want to see if an ACE inhibitor such as enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day) will help. If it does, she has a heart problem and will need other heart meds added.

sorry that both of you are going through this.

 

[Unepuce]

Thank you for your support. I read what I most dearly wanted to read - Wait! But it's still heart-breaking to see her this way.

Mamarat, your story is encouraging and I certainly wish Chatouille will do like Jani and live a happy, med-free longer life!

Jorats, thanks for the support, and you're right. She clearly is in pain, but she also clearly wants to stay alive and I will definitely not let her down.

SQ, I am calling the vet right this afternoon to enquire about ACE inhibitors. I do appreciate the advice - I sure didn't see any further than regular myco and eventhough I hope she does not have a heart condition on top of it, I am definitely not ignoring that possibility! I don't believe you can just go to the pharmacy and buy enalapril, can you?

Thank you again - I know I am hearing from very experienced rats lovers and I sure appreciate your support :hugs:

 

[lilspaz68]

You can manage her pain don't worry, if her eyes are bright and she is doing things she loves, its not time yet. I also am going through this with a formerly robust little lady. Heavy laboured look to her breathing but no lung sounds. She has the things she likes and her eyes are very very bright.

 

[lj]

:hugs: I agree with everyone else. I'd give the meds some more time to kick in. If she's still got fight in her, it's not her time yet.

 

[fenshae]

I'll second what everyone else has said, and give her time -- and maybe as SQ suggested, tweaking the meds to see if it helps any. My girl Velvet started having bad respiratory problems around 20 months and I was sure I would loser her any night, she'd have these awful breathing attacks, gasping and low-energy and just looked terrible. But they did clear up, and she ended up living past the 3-year mark before going quietly in her sleep.

In my experience, the animal will always let you know when it's time. If there's any real doubt at all in your mind, then it's not time.

*hugs* hang in there!

 

[Unepuce]

You can manage her pain don't worry, if her eyes are bright and she is doing things she loves, its not time yet. I also am going through this with a formerly robust little lady. Heavy laboured look to her breathing but no lung sounds. She has the things she likes and her eyes are very very bright.

Lilspaz, you nailed it right down - Heavy laboured breathing, but no sound (unless I put my ear to her chest). Her eyes are bright, eventhough she's got that soooooooo tired look.

I did call the vet about enalapril and while mine is not working on Mondays, the receptionist mentionned that she believed they usually diagnosed these problems with a X-ray. She mentionned that if I shouldn't see she was getting better after 4/5 days, I should go back and they would try to change the meds or investigate something different.

All these positive feedbacks are making me feel much better - thank you all. I believe I am now ready to stand up and fight by her side - and will continue to put Picolo at work with me.

 

[victoria]

Unespuce, the other thing you can ask for is Prednisone instead of Metacam. It will help her breathe easier for a few days while it helps the antibiotics take effect. The vets will often give it without an appointment (we go to the same practice) if you have already been in for an assessment and explain she is still having trouble breathing. (It's not too expensive either.)

If you end up switching meds or thinking about a nebulizer, I just bought one (the one the vet's rents out has been out forever) that I don't think I'll be needing right away after all. *fingers crossed*

I've been through this with my boy recently and it sucks. I hope she starts getting better :hugs:

 

[Unepuce]

I am making notes here! Victoria, where did you get the nebulizer and how much does that go for?

BTW - your avatar looks exactely like my Chatouille - can't take my eyes off it ;O)

For your info, Chatouille seemed better last night. I was greeted with endless kisses and she even tried to climb on my arm, eventhough after a few minutes on my shoulder, she definitely wanted to go back home. She keeps eating and even got in a fight with my Alpha male - when my bf separated them, he said she was standing up, facing him. He also mentionned that while I was taking a shower last night, she was eating a block. She still has a hard time breathing, her hair still stands up (it's worst in the morning, somehow), and she does have that face that says "Will it ever end???", but she's fighting, and I promised her I'd be by her side. And her Picolo is still taking very good care of her.

If her breathing doesn't ease by week end, back to the vet we will go to discuss other options like all your suggestions above. I definitely want her to move in the new CN with the other - working on liners right now and need to go back to intros, which are not easy. My Mac is S-C-A-R-E-D... :?

 

[Rachael]

I'm glad she is bright at the moment

 

[victoria]

I got my nebulizer on ebay (this is it: http://cgi.ebay.ca/John-Bunn-Neb-u-Lite ... 56380a8bac)

It cost me $65 for the unit and shipping (took 3 weeks) and $15 for taxes and handling because the idiots declared the value at $70 even though they also marked it as a gift :? (Under $60 is tax exempt.) There's a place in town that sells them but the cheapest model is $165 for an adult and $185 for an infant one. (Don't ask me what the difference is.) What ever model you buy, the particles it creates should be between .5 an 5 microns. You also have to make a chamber to nebulize in with some ventilation, I use this as a guide http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails096.html.

Keep in mind that a lot of rats are also terrified of the sound it makes so it may not be a solution for you. I have a large group and probably will continue keeping similar numbers for a while so I decided I probably would get some use out of it at some point.

The rat in my Avatar is Cloud, the last of my original crew, who passed away in February. It's how I like to remember her, cautiously exploring in search of a tasty treat or a comfy place to nap.

 

[Unepuce]

It's been a week back on the meds for Chatouille today, and the only improvement I can see is a little sporadic regain of energy (she was grooming her man this morning, with a few pauses to catch her breath). Don't worry, I keep fighting with her - called the vet this morning to get an appointment tomorrow to take a closer look and have an X-ray taken to rule out (hopefully) the heart problem.

I am drained - I have Chatouille and my 2 other girls on Baytril/Doxy/Metacam, I have a guinea pigs on some other antibiotics for her 5th urinary infection, I have 3 cages to maintain twice daily (small one for Mac, medium one for the rest of the crew, and HUGE one for the 3 piggies), I have that huge CN cage I keep stressing about 'cause I can't find time to make liners and now that I've gotten used to its immensity, I feel the current cage is being way too small and can't wait to move everyone in the new home, plus I am badly failing in introducing Mac to the rest of the crew, which doesn't help with that stress... and to top it all, I confirmed yesterday night that Mimi had a growing mass in her neck. :sad-p: She's coming to the vet as well tomorrow - the good news is that the mass is soft, not hard, might be nothing, but still an upcoming surgery... I have been giving meds non-stop for the past two-months (at least!) and I can't wait to get a break - between work and that household stuff I hardly have time to get to, how do you multi-cagers manage to do it??? I've got to say it - you are my heros... I'm not nearly as tough as you are!

I'll keep you posted on my next steps with Chatouille. Can't wait for a major improvement so she can start breathing normally again. This is too painful to watch, even when she is in a good mood...

 

[jorats]

Take a step back and breathe. Do something nice for yourself and then throw yourself back into the grind.
Trust me, most of us feel like you often enough. It gets so overwhelming but you have to tell yourself that they need you and you are there for them.
But don't forget to pamper yourself. You need to make sure you are happy in order to care for your sweeties properly.
Oh and don't forget as well... housework can wait.

 

[Unepuce]

Thanks for the support, Jo, and don't worry - I know housework can wait. My bf is kind enough to take most of the urgent work on his shoulder - which I am not complaining about since I am the only rat caretaker in the house!

 

[jorats]

Thanks for the support, Jo, and don't worry - I know housework can wait. My bf is kind enough to take most of the urgent work on his shoulder - which I am not complaining about since I am the only rat caretaker in the house!

A supportive spouse really is important. Scott takes over what ever I need done when we are in a crisis.

 

[SQ]

Heart problems are diagosed by the response to enalapril.
If it helps then atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day to start) is added and an xray is done to see if the heart is enlarged.
If the heart is enlarged then digoxin (0.0025 mg/Ib twice a day) is also added.
Not all heart problems can be seen on an xray.

note: 1 Ib = 454.4 grams

 

[Unepuce]

Thanks SQ - will memorize for my meeting tomorrow. If I can save the $75 for an X-ray, that would give the vet fund a breather...

 

[Unepuce]

Just got back from the vet... SQ, I owe you one.

My vet wanted switch antibiotics, and I did mention that I was told it also could be a heart problem. We went for the X-ray (she refused to prescribe enalapril without one, heart medicine being too dangerous) - Chatouille's heart is huge and her lungs definitely need to be drained. We're finishing off the antibiotics as planned, and adding Enalapril Digoxin and Lasix for the next too weeks. We'll then have another X-ray done to see how far along the meds went... Gosh, I hope it will help.

This morning, I read the Rainbow Bridge poem for the first time - actually shed few tears at work. And on my way back from the vet tonight, I saw a rainbow - which of course got me crying like a baby (first time I cry at the wheel... not fun). I was torn between sadness and hope - rainbows always bring hope to my heart - and I hope this was a sign that she will be fine, and that she will be leaving quietly in her sleep, old and serene, in a year or two from now.

At least, I now know what is wrong with her and am better equipped to relieve and help her. And we will keep fighting.