3 girls with heart problems - not doing well

[SQ]

I think it has to do with all the postmortems she's done on our rats. Only 2 had CHF. So she strongly believes that heart issues don't really happen in rats. I've talked to her several times about it. She really hates treating something without knowing for real if it's indeed the heart. She's mentioned getting an ultrasound of the heart done but at $600 a pop... that's a tad unreasonable.
So far though, we've really been lucky and no real heart issues yet.
Unfortunately, there is not any other vet here that will see rats.

What about rats with huge hearts?
When my rats don't respond to diff combos of antibiotics but do respond to heart meds, we xray them to see if the heart is too large ... of course the heart can have serious problems without being enlarged, but that is something that can be seen on an xray.

 

[jorats]

We have not had a rat like that yet... then again, she doesn't like doing xrays on rats either.

 

[Debbie]

then again, she doesn't like doing xrays on rats either.

mg:
Oh Jo, I'm really sorry. :sad3: I can't even begin to tell you all that doing xrays have showed us in the past. mets/scaring/masses/fluid in lungs, enlarged livers and hearts. With our little Sadie who left us due to a ZG tumor, the xray showed us the mets in her lungs and how the tumor had started compromising her ear canal and skull :sad3:.
We did before and after xrays on our Phoebe when she had some pretty bad "respiratory" issues. The xray showed some mass in her lungs. We treated her with abs and nebulizer treatments for two weeks...then had a recheck xray done, after she was feeling better....the mass was gone!

Ok, shutting up again now. :wink2:

 

[SQ]

:yeah:

My vet doesn't do xrays unless there is a good reason ... but when a rattie is ill and you need more info., they can really help give you the info. needed to make treatment decisions.
As Debbie said ... lungs, heart, masses, tumors, fluid, teeth roots ....

 

[theratlady]

so shes done posted rats and found two with heart problems but rats dont get them? thats confusing! chf causes bad lungs not the other way around
there is also cardiomiopathy that can happen and various other diseases. unless someone has vast amount of experience doing necropsies then a good knowledge of rats on top of that she can only theorize on what cause of death is. no histopath or virology was done i take it? its too bad things are so outrageously expensive to get done.

I think it has to do with all the postmortems she's done on our rats. Only 2 had CHF. So she strongly believes that heart issues don't really happen in rats. I've talked to her several times about it. She really hates treating something without knowing for real if it's indeed the heart. She's mentioned getting an ultrasound of the heart done but at $600 a pop... that's a tad unreasonable.
So far though, we've really been lucky and no real heart issues yet.
Unfortunately, there is not any other vet here that will see rats.

 

[jorats]

She's a pro at necropsies. Histopathologies were done as well when we needed further answers.

I think she would do the xrays if we pushed for them though. But what's the use if she won't treat heart issues. :worry:

 

[Debbie]

I think she would do the xrays if we pushed for them though. But what's the use if she won't treat heart issues. :worry:

I can't tell you how many rat folks that I've known, who have vets that just keep throwing abs for respiratory issues, at a rat that could very well have an underlying heart issue as the culprit. It's so hard to hear them say "the vet doesn't hear anything wrong with their heart....but told us we'll just have to try Benedryl now as it's probably allergies" :doh:

In a case where we aren't sure (no heart abnormality obviously present) we'll often try Lasix for a short duration (3 days) to see if it starts clearing fluidy sounds. If so, it could indicate heart issues right there. Then we go with heart meds in addition and often abs too.

We have a vet locally that works with exotics. He's literally a mile from my house (my usual vet is a 45 minute drive). But I only go to see him in the case of an emergency euthanisia. He refuses to use meds like Cefa or steroids. Although my vet tends to go with Metacam as a non-steroidal option...there ARE times when steroids are needed. He says he would NEVER us steroids on any small animal....for that reason alone, I won't go see him. This same vet, I saw once with my two snorky girls. He had me put them on high doses of baytril (combo'd with Doxy) and said if it didn't work, we'd go up from there.....I took them back to my usual vet, who detected serious heart issues, and they've been on heart meds ever since.

Of course it's harder on folks who don't have too many options with vets, but I would hope they are open to looking at appropriate documentation on certain items. Jo, do you think your vet might consider heart meds, if she had this type of info from other exotic vets who's had success treating?

 

[theratlady]

omg yes steroids are a necessity in rats when nothing else works.
and heart disease can be noted by laboured breathing and lethargy sometimes they have blue toes too. its too bad some vets are narrowminded.

 

[Godmother]

It's really tough to know what's going on with some of the rats. Untreated lung disease (happens often even with diligent owners because problems have to get bad enough to be audible before they realize that the rat needs vet care) can result in damage, and then abs don't help. In such cases the heart could be fine unless it was taxed to the point where it was damaged also. Xrays and/or ultrasound is needed to refine the diagnosis. I don't suppose that many vets have the small ultrasound machines needed for small animals; they are very expensive. Rat heartbeats are so fast that it would be impossible to detect most abnormalities by stethoscope.

So all we have to go on is trial and error, xrays, and autopsies. It has been very much worthwhile to medicate some of my rats with heart meds. Georgie got another 8 months, Rhonda got 4.

 

[jorats]

Debbie, if heart disease and treatment was documented by other vets by publishing or even by participating in vet only forums, I bet she would come around and give it a try.

We do have a clinic in a town close to us that has and ultrasound machine for all animals. But it's $600 for one test.
The closest exotic vet would be Dr. Munn in Toronto, 5 hours away, one way. I don't know of any other good exotic vet that is closer.

 

[Debbie]

I'll see my vet on Saturday, and will ask her if she belongs to any vet forums. She works at two clinics and about 60 hours a week, so I kind of doubt it. But she's just so good, and I think can offer so much info.

I will also ask her if she knows of documentation/studies on heart meds for rats etc and see if we can come up with something to share.

Our vet does not have an ultra-sound machine, but there is a place locally that does. I just hear the work and get anxious, as it's at least $400 here. So far, we haven't had to go that route (for one reason or another) but it has been suggested a few times.

It really is amazing how much stuff you can see on an xray alone though. But unfortunately, masses don't normally show. We had a rattie with a large internal mass. Although I could feel it plain as day, it didn't show on an xray. You could tell it was there, because his organs were all squished off to one side :sad3:.

 

[jorats]

I'll gather whatever info you can give me.
I've tried the "but the other vets" do it and I don't think she's impressed when I do that. lol

 

[jennifervb]

We have not had a rat like that yet... then again, she doesn't like doing xrays on rats either.

Your vet should have a chat with my vet. Dr. Richards is the x-ray queen!

In the last 3 weeks both Albert and Buddy have had x-rays to make sure that there is no heart condition.

Dr. Richards and Dr. Davis do not like prescribing meds until they know exactly what they are dealing with.

Thank God for small miracles. :love6:

 

[Ewa]

Wow jen that vet sounds amazing!