Two fights between Mr. H (instigator) and Chance

[M0onkist]

Last night while I was in chat, I heard rat screams.

I flung my laptop off my lap and ran into the main room, and found Chance in the Chube, shaking and trying to groom himself a bit, Mr. Honeycomb looked calm (but in a more victorious way). I had to coax Chance out of the Chube so I could check on him, and found a small injury on his foot - a little bite or scrape.

Arlene was on at the time and she talked to Chance, who told her it wasn't his fault (which backed up what I was thinking already). I cuddled Chance and we talked to him until he was entirely calm, then with rather great trepidation I took Mr. H. out of the big cage, put Chance in, then put Mr. Honeycomb back in.

Half an hour later, there's another rat screech, Chance is back to hiding in the Chube, and Mr. H. looks victorious again. This time I plucked Mr. H. out and put him in the travel cage with food and water, checked Chance for injury, and then had to go to bed.

Any thoughts or ideas on why this happened, if it's likely to happen again? And what should I do to help prevent it?

 

[lilspaz68]

Sounds like typical dominance behaviour but nothing to worry about. Let them sort it out. If you continue to plucking them out, it will never get sorted. No real injuries have occurred and sweet Chance is probably just a bit vocal.

 

[jorats]

I agree, let them work it out. Sometimes we think it's a fight when all along they were playing. They can play rough at times but still cuddle when they want.
How big is the cage?

 

[M0onkist]

It's 18" by 30" by 22" high. At 2 cubic feet per rat, it says it can hold up to 3 rats.

There are plenty of levels too (well, not as many as in the Critter nation - I currently have Critter Nation envy!) - one big ramp going up to a second level, a rope-walk to the top of the sleep cube and sleep sac, and a new half-level (9" squared) at the corner beside the sleep cube.

 

[jorats]

That's a good size cage for the two.

 

[LA]

I know the boys I'm looking after, they scream bloody murder and it's always Spaz going after poor Spike. Girls are WAY quieter that's for sure.

 

[M0onkist]

I LOVE your avatar, LA!

They seem to have settled a lot since the two fights - there was a bit of a scream this afternoon, but Chance actually got the drop on Mr. H. this time - dunno if he saw him coming or what. In any event, Mr. H was flat on his belly and Chance was using him like a glorified body pillow, lol, but they did snuggle down for quite a few naps afterwards that I saw, so it looks like there weren't any hard feelings.

And now Chance is on my shoulder bruxxing fit to wear his teeth down to nubs - what a little angel!

It's a curious thing, too - when Mr. H wants to snuggle in the chube and Chance is already there, Mr. H usually comes to the mouth of the chube, then rolls over onto his back as he slides in, so his legs are waaaaay up in the air - and then Chance uses his chest as a pillow. What I can't figure out though, is if that's submission, or some form of dominance (like to better defend himself or something).

I think they're just trying to figure out the structure of their relationship, mostly.

 

[jorats]

Aw.... him sliding in on his back is asking for loving... I'd say Mr. H is the boss.

 

[Dahlas]

I know the boys I'm looking after, they scream bloody murder and it's always Spaz going after poor Spike. Girls are WAY quieter that's for sure.

Someone needs to tell that to my Angel. She is very quiet unless she smells an unneutered man rat. When Tory (RIP) used to look at her she would scream....scared the crap out of me until I realized he wasn't doing anything to her....she just didn't want his stinky manrat body next to her....... :roll:

 

[jorats]

I know the boys I'm looking after, they scream bloody murder and it's always Spaz going after poor Spike. Girls are WAY quieter that's for sure.

Someone needs to tell that to my Angel. She is very quiet unless she smells an unneutered man rat. When Tory (RIP) used to look at her she would scream....scared the crap out of me until I realized he wasn't doing anything to her....she just didn't want his stinky manrat body next to her....... :roll:

:laugh4: That is just too funny. My screamers here are girls too.

 

[M0onkist]

::sighs:: Well, things can only go on well for so long, right?

Reached the end of that particular stretch of peace last night, apparently. More rat screams. Tim and I run over to the cage to see what's going on (mostly to check to make sure there were no injuries that needed tending).

Since Chance was in the chube, I put my hand down to the ground level to pick up Mr. H. and see if he was okay. What followed was... a bit weird. I reached down to pick him up, and he jumped around and bit me. (NOT that I blame him).

Tim stepped in at that point and helped me get Chance checked out (he had a scrape near his shoulder, so I put some numbing/antiseptic liquid on it), and then very carefully picked up Mr. Honeycomb.

Here was something interesting - Mr. H. is most likely the dominant one in his relationship with Chance, and Tim is very definitely the more dominant of the two of us. So where I doubted very much that Mr. H. wouldn't have been happy at all with me, he put up with Tim washing him just a bit with water (his fur was very dirty) with only a few squeaks, then Tim checking for any cuts or scrapes (he had a very tiny one as well). Once he was all patched up, we put him in the small cage and Tim spent a lot of time gently stroking and talking to him, and figured out that Mr. Honeycomb is only okay being picked up from his belly, rather than from above.

It was really pretty magnificent how Tim was able to make a connection with Mr. Honeycomb. After all that, we got me patched up and went to bed.

I'm not at all sure why Mr. H. was worked up to THAT point when he was the victor... I've since been able to cuddle him, and he now seems to have quite the rapport with Tim (which is reassuring, and also intriguing from a psychological/personality perspective).

 

[jorats]

We all have different energies and I suspect Tim has a very calm and soothing one.
No matter if there's a victor in the scuffle, it's still stressful for the two, especially if Chance is always testing the alpha.
Can you start giving them two chubes, two food bowls, two of everything so Chance can have his own, or H can go into his own.
Picking up a rat by scooping is really the only way to pick up rats. But rats that are young and very trusting don't mind the grab.

 

[M0onkist]

Yeah... Chance really doesn't care which way I pick him up, he's just terribly happy to climb onto my shoulder, lol

I've been mimicking Tim's actions on Mr. H, and it seems to have soothed him somewhat - Tim definitely exudes a calm energy though - he's the antithesis of my anxiety/hyperactivity driven personality, lol.

Mr. H. was being groomed by Chance today - it was the cutest thing. Mr. Honeycomb was stretched out on his back, eyes closed, little legs all curled up while Chance groomed his chest and used him as a pillow!

I like your idea of a second Chube and food dish - I'll definitely get a second Chube when next I'm near a pet store, and I have a few extra food dishes in my rat bin.

 

[ryelle]

ive heard that after a hormonal, dominance fight, that it can take up to an hour for the rat to go back to 'normal' again and calm down. Anyone know?? If it's true, that might be why you got bit the other day

 

[jorats]

ryelle, that makes sense, perhaps not an hour maybe more like 1/2 hour from what I've observed in the past.

 

[M0onkist]

Two more fights, last night and this morning - more rat screams. ::sighs::

Separated them for an hour to let the testosterone go down.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong at this point, or what I should be doing to help them - is a neuter the solution?

 

[henry's_mum]

how did I miss this post?
:doh:

It sounds like they're still trying to work out their 'possitions' in their relationship...
Are any of the wounds bad, or are they just kinda superficial?
Could you not let them work it out, and just make sure it doesn't get out of control. Screaming is a normal thing comming from Chancey, he's a screamer, and would ALWAYS prefer to be on your shoulder. It sounds like maybe he's using this as an escape mechinism? Scream and I get out?

I like to let me boys go as far as they can in establishing who's who in their cage. and yes that sometimes means screaming, comming from a screamer. But much like Shelagh said, if you don't let them work this out, it never will, and it will only get worse hun.

Your other option is to neuter, but if you're gonna do that, do it while they're still young, they bounce back quicker!

let me know how it works out?

 

[jorats]

When you say a fight... what do you see? Rat screams are not always from pain or fear, it can also be protesting and even just playing. My Vincent screamed when in fact he was having fun.

I would definitely not separate them. They need to work it out. The beta needs to submit to the alpha. If you keep pulling them apart, the alpha has to start all over again.

A neuter can definitely help...but they still have to establish alpha and beta. For me, a neuter is a must if they bite the humans or they bite the other rats from direct attacks.

 

[M0onkist]

By the time I get to them they've already separated each time - Chance crammed into the Chube, Mr. Honeycomb... well, wherever else he is (usually wherever the fight occurred, I think).

I check, but there's never anything major.

I'll stick them back together - I kept them apart for long enough to let the testosterone settle, and I took some time to pet both. ::sighs:: The last thing I want to do is something that'd be more painful for them. The screams are just so hard to take though, you know? Is there some good measure of when the scream means 'ow you're really hurting/biting me, let me go now' - different intonation, decibel level, stuff like that?

Would it also be good if they spend more time in their 'neutral' place, the playground bathtub?

 

[jorats]

The screams are all the same and it can definitely play on your nerves.
Getting them more bonded is a good idea. What you would need is to put them in "scary" places like in the car for a ride, in the bathtub, maybe give them a bath, near the washing machine, the noise will scare them but force them to bond. Get a bonded sack and place them in there and carry them around with you for an hour each day.
Is there something in the cage that seems to be coveted by both rats? If so, remove it if you can.
Another thing you could do is watch the cage without them knowing you are there... you'll be able to observe what the real problem is.

Also, were they treated for mites? lj's new boy had mites that day... they might have them now which could explain the grumpiness.