Trouble introducing younger rat.

[indierat]

Hey new to the forums here so hope I'm posting this in the right section.

We have had 2 male rats, Remy and Emile for about 9-10 months, since they were 6 weeks old . They have always been angels, never bitten very social and never really squabbled between themselves.

About 2 and a half weeks ago we brought home a little dumbo rat (Indie) that was alone for adoption in a pet store after having a respitory infection and no one wanting him.
We bought a larger cage to house Remy and Emile and used thier old cage after being scrubbed out to house Indie, with the idea of them all living happily together in the larger cage.

We started introductions in the bath after a few days of Indie getting socialised to us. The first meeting went well with no real squabbles just some sniffing and running after each other. On the second meeting Emile started to almost aggressivly lift up Indie to sniff/groom Indies undercarrage, Indie submitted and let this go on. Remy still stayed away.

After this we tried a meeting in a more open area on the bed, although all rats had been on the bed at some time we used fresh sheets and towels to try to mask scents. This went well untill Emile started darting around very quickly and stressed out the other 2. Indie got very distressed and in a squabble he bit Remy's side, not enough to draw blood but some fur was lost.

We went back to meetings in the bath and it was going well between Emile and Indie with Indie submitting. Emile however was getting a bit agressive with the sniffing on Indies lower area and at one point tried to mount him.

The real issue has come from Remy however. He and Indie dont seem to get along, Remy will Puff up and side step Indie whenever he comes close. We have tried to calm him and sometimes they can eat treats along side each other, however sometimes it just errupts and they come to blows quite seriously. There has never been blood but there has been fur lost and Indie is half Remys size.
Now Remy and Emile have began squabbling more seriously and standing off against each other in the boxing pose more often where as they have never done this before.

So sorry for the essay of a back story but its driving us crazy that little Indie is on his own and without companionship.
What should we do next? Keep the meetings going and try to seperate before squabbles errupt?
Do some rats just never gel? Making living together impossible?
But my main question is about neutering. Should I get my 2 older boys neutered? I have read that some of the behaviour they display would be alleviated but I have also read horror stories about neutering going wrong.

So any help from anyone would be greatly appriciated. Any reassuring tales of rats that didnt get on but now live happily together?
Thanks, Rich

 

[jorats]

Hi Rich, you've given great detail which always helps when trying to figure out what's going on in these little minds of theirs.
So far, I'd say your intro is pretty typical with boys at their peak age. Remy and Emile are at that point. It seems to me that Remy is alpha and Emile is beta. Sometimes the beta does worse bullying than the alpha.
How old is Indie?

I would continue on the bed meetings for now. When one is about to approach Indie, put your hand in between and firmly push away the older boy. Only do this if you are certain your rats will never bite you. When you push, push from their side/romp area. That's a dominate move and you are doing it to the alpha and beta. Keep doing this for about 3 days on the bed. On the fourth day, let them get near enough to sniff each other. When Emile lifts Indie's underside for a good sniff, that's normal and you should allow that.

Things that are innocent enough is the boxing, the sniffing, and even mounting.. it can get rough when one decides to groom hard the back of the neck or too much side rubbing.
Neutering, if you can afford it and have an excellent vet, I certainly would get both or all boys done. Neutering removes all stress, it truly is a benefit to the males making them much healthier without all that hormonal stuff driving them nuts.

 

[indierat]

Thanks for the quick reply. Indie is about 10-12 weeks.
I will try the bed again and keep a close eye on Remy. I know it all takes time it just pains me knowing little Indie is on his own.
To be honest I couldn't tell you who is the alpha as they never usually squabble. Remy puffs up when Indie approaches and is more aggressive, whereas Emile just seems to want to groom/sniff Indie and actively seeks him, whilst Remy keeps to himself until Indie approaches.

Apart from being a little sniffy Emile is fine with Indie and they get on, Indie will submit and lay on his back for Emile. Its just Remy who seems to not get on with him.
Would you suggest we do intros with 2 rats at a time? or all together?

I want to get them neutered I just couldn't bear anything bad happening to them.
Thankfully we have never needed a vet before, are there any tips for finding a good vet?
Any questions to ask? Should we look for a specialist in small animals?

Finally how long after neutering can the intros resume if thier behavior is largely to do with thier hormones?
Thanks so much again, Rich.

 

[indierat]

Just let Emile and Indie play in the bathtub. Things went swimmingly (no pun intended, there wasn't any water in the bath).
Let them have a play so that Indie gets some company. He seemed to enjoy being groomed.
Now just to work on Remy, fingers crossed.

 

[jorats]

You can definitely try one on one with Indie and Emile. That's never been my style. I like the whole colony in on the intro but just because that works for me, doesn't mean that you doing one on one won't work for you.

As for a good vet, an exotic vet is best, they are usually more knowledgeable in rodents. You'll know your vet is a good one when you see him. Even doing a regular check up, you'll see if the vet is comfortable with the rat. You could ask him how many times he's done surgery on rats and how did it go for the most part. If the vet tells you a rat needs to fast before surgery, then something is not quite right because rats should never fast before surgery. If a vet ever suggest giving meds in a water bottle, again a good indication that the vet is not rat savvy.

 

[jorats]

You can definitely try one on one with Indie and Emile. That's never been my style. I like the whole colony in on the intro but just because that works for me, doesn't mean that you doing one on one won't work for you.

As for a good vet, an exotic vet is best, they are usually more knowledgeable in rodents. You'll know your vet is a good one when you see him. Even doing a regular check up, you'll see if the vet is comfortable with the rat. You could ask him how many times he's done surgery on rats and how did it go for the most part. If the vet tells you a rat needs to fast before surgery, then something is not quite right because rats should never fast before surgery. If a vet ever suggest giving meds in a water bottle, again a good indication that the vet is not rat savvy.

 

[SQ]

re surgery : viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9640