Time to separate the old men from the boys?/Finally did it

[Argent]

Hey all, just to recap, I have five boys, Hugo, Mako, Rufus, Seamus and Marsh, the latter 3 being brothers from a rescued mum. They've all been living happily together for about a year now, but Hugo and Mako are reaching 2 years old (21 months old now I think, they were adopted at 7 mths) and I think my younger boys are trying to kick them out of the group, or at least push them around to the point where they're getting stressed out a lot.
Recently I had to referee Rufus (largest of the three young ones) and Hugo (current Alpha, and oldie) as Rufus was sidling up to him, puffed up, boxing, the lot. We've had no blood drawn but it's been just over a week or so and now Seamus is joining in with the poofing and sidling up to poor Hugo, who's really losing his place, it's sad to see. Both him and Mako are pretty much resigned to just keeping out of the three bros ways and I'm beginning to wonder if I should separated the explorer into two groups, the oldies and the young boys.

I'd be tempted to adopt or foster some other OAPs to keep Hugo and Mako in other rattie company, but I'm just wondering what you guys think before I start splitting them up. Hugo and Mako are looking pretty tired and sickly these days, clearly with stress from the constant hassle of the three younger boys. I don't want them to start going downhill when they're otherwise both strong and happy old guys.

 

[Rachael]

I think sometimes older rats just want peace and if they are stressed, I probably would separate them, but you know your boys and what to do best.

 

[victoria]

Would neutering one or two of them help? Is the option available to you?

If they used to get along well I would think that they should be able to live together (with the help of a neuter), although I don't have as much experience with boys as girls. My hesitation in separating them is that when one of the older boys passes the other will be left alone and that you will have that much less time to interact with each group. But there are a lot of people on the forum that have more experience with behaviour and males, so I may stand corrected.

 

[Argent]

I don't really know if I want to put any of them through a neuter - their behaviour isn't really mega violence, it's just bullying. I'm more for the belief that my old guys just want a peaceful life, and I'm far from against adding some more oldies for them to chill with, and more young kids for the boys to bounce around with, their age gap is just causing them to clash as Hugo and Mako slow down. I don't really want to risk anyone under the knife over a shift in ranks.

 

[jorats]

I don't separate my oldies unless there's a huge age difference and if there's some real havoc going on.
If you feel they need to come out of the environment then do so. You would know more than us since you are there and you see what is going on.
You could also try dominating the younger ones each time they decide to bully an older boy. All you would need to do is put your hand over their heads and push towards the bottom gently but firmly. Hold tight for a second or two then release. That should tell them to back off.

 

[Argent]

Alright, I'll try that next time I have them out - they seem to act up more when I'm paying attention to them :/

 

[Moon]

They might do better living separately and only getting out time together, when you can really sit down and moderate their behaviour?

 

[Rachael]

I've not found dominating them to work, we're not rats and can't really recreate acting like them.... I don't see what good that would do?

 

[jorats]

I've not found dominating them to work, we're not rats and can't really recreate acting like them.... I don't see what good that would do?

Works with mine every time. You need to do it right and need the right energy.

 

[Moon]

I've not found dominating them to work, we're not rats and can't really recreate acting like them.... I don't see what good that would do?

Works with mine every time. You need to do it right and need the right energy.

You'd also need absolutely perfect timing.

 

I have 3 boys living in 1 cage and 2 in another, but they get out time together everyday with no troubles (3 are unneuterd, 2 are neutered).

 

[jorats]

I've not found dominating them to work, we're not rats and can't really recreate acting like them.... I don't see what good that would do?

Works with mine every time. You need to do it right and need the right energy.

You'd also need absolutely perfect timing.

Exactly.

 

[Argent]

I'll just keep a close eye on them these next few weeks til I finish Uni for the summer (4 weeks) if I feel they need to be separated at any time, I'll do that and just let them have out time together when I can supervise and pinch anyone that acts up. Once I'm off, I'd be happier staying in and observing how they are, being separated for most of the day. As it is now, I'm not around enough to keep a close eye on any changes.

 

[ryelle]

I've not found dominating them to work, we're not rats and can't really recreate acting like them.... I don't see what good that would do?

I used this method a few times with Patrick when he started huffin and pushing Sid around and after a few pins and him huffing at me, he got the point and left him alone. Wouldn't dare go near him whilst i was there.

If the old boys are really looking fed up then you could try and seperate them and see if they look happier away from the young'uns. You might see an immediate change in mood (i saw this with patrick and sid, less stress all round.

Are they all living in the Explorer?

 

[Argent]

Yup they're all in it together, two levels, tons of space, but I feel mean splitting it because they all love the top level so much I wouldn't know who to banish to the bottom level ><
I'm thinking of gathering a load of nice things to make the bottom level awesome and put the younger boys down there since they won't like, deteriorate if they get a bit short-changed.

 

[ryelle]

you should figure out which things the younger boys use most and the older boys use most (like the younger ones might like hammocks more and the older ones plastic houses, boxes etc.) and split it. I have a piece of corrugated plastic that was originally part of Sids cage that i just slide under the top tray to weight it down and remove the ramp from the bottom going up when im cleaning the cage or Mu is being a psycho. You could always add the ramp in and remove whatever you put in place to block it during the day when your able to supervise so they can all hang out together still

 

[Argent]

True, it is fairly easy to put the stairs in the way to block it. It's just...they ALL love the top shelf XD because it's on top I'm assuming, so I'm going to supplement the lower level with very fun boxes

 

[Argent]

Today I noticed blood patches down Hugo's tail and decided enough was enough. I wiped down both levels of the cage and turned the top pan around to block the stairway. They are now officially separated.
The past few weeks I've come to realise I really need to be spending more time thinking about my boys and so I'm dedicating this summer to Hugo and Mako's happy healthy retirement, and Rufus' weight loss plan - my big manrat seriously needs to lose some grams! I don't know what he weighs exactly at the moment but it's in the region of 700g-ish. He looks flabby, he needs to lose it
Seamus and Marsh could do with a tone up too tbh, so a more controlled diet with more veggies and trying out a lab block might just be the ticket to slimmer boys

 

[Argent]

Argh I'm shaking >.< Just had the five boys out for their playtime together and they started making their way back into Hugo and Mako's part of the cage, which I thought would be fine, but then Hugo and Rufus burst out into a MASSIVE fight inside the blue igloo and I went and stuck my hand in to drag Hugo out. I didn't get bitten but I'm so shaken - I literally just nearly fainted then.
Ugh >< Looks like playtime together is ok as long as it doesn't span to the cage...I can understand why Hugo would be territorial over his igloo, as their part of the cage is looking a bit bare at the moment til I get more boxes...ugh I need to calm down - he's probably not even that bothered!

 

[jorats]

Once boys are separated, they aren't allowed cage visits it turns into what you witnessed.
I don't know how I missed your other post but want to comment... that is so beautiful that you have decided to make your boys the priority in your life.