Suppository Medicating/Hydrating

[RattusNorvegicus]

Now I know a lot of us here aren't fans of Debbie's information, but as mentioned on FB the best thing to do is be open-minded and welcome information from anywhere to make the best choice possible.

In Rat Health Care she mentions in an emergency medication can be given in the rectum and that the dose should be increased by half. I would assume if your rat is gasping and you can't give Dex orally or by injection that would be useful? She also mentions if your rat is dehydrated, you can give 2-3mls of warm saline every hour or two in the rectum. I'd like your opinions on this so I know whether this is good information to keep in mind for future reference or if it should just be disregarded.

 

[hopefloats]

I wouldn't dare stick anything up a rats bumm unless needed I would worry about it ripping something or them jerking. Hard enough to do that to large nimals or kids let alone a small rat. The rectal absorbs faster that is why she recommend s it but still

 

[Joanne]

Ditto - it sounds good in theory, but practically I think it would be dangerous.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

Dehydration and gasping is dangerous too though. I'd think just sticking the tip in, it wouldn't even really hurt as long as you are gentle enough. I don't think tissue would tear from a blunt syringe tip either unless of course they were to jerk as mentioned. And they'd have to jerk pretty hard..

 

[jorats]

Oh god. She actually writes that?
When I check my dogs temperature, I use a thermometer which is equally as small as a syringe tip and yet, my dog is very bothered by it with his much bigger rectum.
If you attempt this, please use lubrication on the syringe tip. This can be quite painful to the rat, especially one having a gasping fit.
I can understand why she recommends the rectum, mucous membranes absorb much faster. But, in all my years of rat care, I've had my fair share of gasping rats and I can tell you, I will NEVER stick anything up their butt especially not when they are in the middle of an attack. Holding them down to administer could cause them to panic to the point of suffocation.

 

[RattusNorvegicus]

She does say to lubricate it. Good way to put it Jo.
It would obviously cause a little discomfort, but not any pain. It seems like it would help in cases of constipation as well...

I've noticed if you hold your rat with one hand, and then lift their tail up with another, their anus somewhat "opens" LOL I can't think of another way to explain it. Smaller syringes don't have very large tips, and surely if only giving 1ml of fluid, it would take literally two second esp. if you had another pair of hands to hold the rat comfortably.

Sorry if it seems I asked opinions and am now discouraging them. I don't mean for it to sound that way at all, just taking things into consideration as it really seems like a good thing to know.

 

[hopefloats]

Stick a suppository up your bumm and see how comfy it is LOL it isnt at all. Rats jump move and squirm.

I just dont see a need for it. They do that in epileptics when they are in a status seizure they have rectal valium to administer but honestly with all my rats cases, dehydration was beat by ensuring they have plenty of liquids, I even syringed it in them. I use a shot of dex for rats that are gasping if it is their lungs. I cant even imagine a drug to put up the bumm that would help, some like dex i would think would be almost caustic since the insides are so much more sensitive.

 

[Petunia]

I have no idea if putting fluids in a rat's rectum would be beneficial if they're dehydrated but I can offer my experience with giving a rat a sort of enema.
Smidgen has an tumor in her "nether regions" - I forget the medical term for it, inguinal maybe? anyway, she had become constipated because I'd given all the rats some puffed rice, as one or more of them had loose poops, and not knowing who it was, I gave the puffed rice to everyone.

Well Smidgen is a bit of a little piggie and she grabbed as much of the puffed rice for herself as she could and with this growing tumor near her anus, she got constipated and couldn't pass the stool.

Took her to the vet and the vet used KY jelly and lubed her up really well then put the tip of the small syringe in her anus and put about a half a cc or so of KY jelly in her rectum.
this helped her to pass the dry hard stool along with some massage to the area.

Smidgen was extremely tolerant of this- she didn't fight or squirm at all. I think she knew it was helping her, and when she finally was able to pass the impacted stool, she let out a little yelp as the biggest pc passed thru but after that, the rest came out and she was clearly so relieved.

I needed to lube her with a KY jelly "enema" a couple more days after this til the diet change (daily fruits) helped to change her stools back to normal.

So, just wanted to add my experience with inserting something into a rat's butt. :giggle:
As RattusNorvegicus said, I could hold her tail up and her anus would open somewhat, and that is actually how we first saw that she had impacted stool, you could see it right there ready to come out but stuck because it was too big and dry.

Smidgen didn't seem to even feel the syringe going in with the KY jelly and she didn't fight at all.

I don't know if having that tumor down there is why this was so easy to do- for all I know the tumor is pressing on something so that she can't feel things down there..? or maybe just having a large growth that has distorted her anus and other organs has made her immune to other unpleasant sensations in that area, I have no idea.

I just wanted to say that I don't think there are any absolutes. There might be a situation where giving something rectally will be the most helpful thing. It might not be anyone's first choice, with such a small animal as a rat, but I don't think it should be dismissed as never possibly being helpful.

that said, it was a vet who did the first enema and I would not have attempted it myself without seeing how it was done first, to see if it was even something I could handle.
It was not an exotics vet who did this, and this was, in fact, HER first rat enema. She was very proud of that :giggle:
I hope that if this vet ever needs to do one again, it goes as smoothly as it did with my very tolerant Smidgen.

and I hope I never have to give one again, but I would not rule out the possibility that something like this might help a rat.

 

[jorats]

The thing is, it's entirely different when a rat is in the middle of a gasping fit.
Everything hurts them. Even picking them up can hurt them if you hold them the wrong way. I've had dozens of gasping rats here since having so many pulmonary abscesses. So yes, I do believe it would be painful to a rat in a gasping fit to have something put up their butt.

 

[Petunia]

The thing is, it's entirely different when a rat is in the middle of a gasping fit.
Everything hurts them. Even picking them up can hurt them if you hold them the wrong way. I've had dozens of gasping rats here since having so many pulmonary abscesses. So yes, I do believe it would be painful to a rat in a gasping fit to have something put up their butt.

oh I totally agree! I was responding to the part about trying to help a dehydrated rat, not one in the middle of a gasping fit, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

 

[jorats]

No worries Petunia.
I was actually responding to this. I should have quoted her before adding my bit.

She does say to lubricate it. Good way to put it Jo.
It would obviously cause a little discomfort, but not any pain.

 

[Petunia]

oh, ok, gotcha!
:thumbup:

 

[victoria]

I don't see the benefit of giving rats rectal fluids versus sub-q and I think it's incredibly dangerous to do so. With rabbits, enemas are given to try to rehydrate the cecum if there's an impaction there because sub-q fluids aren't always effective enough. Even then, the vet we use at the shelter won't entertain the idea of them being done outside of the clinic because there is such a risk of perforation.

Suppository medications... I don't see how they would be more effective than by injection. If you can't inject, it's likely unsafe to give them rectally. I also have serious reservations about the way she's calculating doses. Different medications are not absorbed at the same rates in different parts of the body, it's really dangerous to just say cut the dose by 50%.

 

[crumbilina]

In Rat Health Care she mentions in an emergency medication can be given in the rectum and that the dose should be increased by half.

Different medications are not absorbed at the same rates in different parts of the body, it's really dangerous to just say cut the dose by 50%.

She say's to increase the dose by half, not cut it victoria (unless you were just using that as an example). I would think that cutting it would be the more logical thing to do... Aren't things absorbed better through the rectum? Actually, maybe it depends on the properties of the drug. I don't understand her rationale for increasing the dose.

Does she provide a reason? Or some reference regarding the dose?

 

[victoria]

In Rat Health Care she mentions in an emergency medication can be given in the rectum and that the dose should be increased by half.

Different medications are not absorbed at the same rates in different parts of the body, it's really dangerous to just say cut the dose by 50%.

She say's to increase the dose by half, not cut it victoria (unless you were just using that as an example). I would think that cutting it would be the more logical thing to do... Aren't things absorbed better through the rectum? Actually, maybe it depends on the properties of the drug. I don't understand her rationale for increasing the dose.

Does she provide a reason? Or some reference regarding the dose?

Ooops. My point is still the same though, I think the change in dosage would vary by medication and how it's compounded. Absorption through the rectum is generally more effective though, because stomach juices don't destroy anything, so I really don't think dosages should be increase.

 

[Petunia]

In Rat Health Care she mentions in an emergency medication can be given in the rectum and that the dose should be increased by half.

Different medications are not absorbed at the same rates in different parts of the body, it's really dangerous to just say cut the dose by 50%.

She say's to increase the dose by half, not cut it victoria (unless you were just using that as an example). I would think that cutting it would be the more logical thing to do... Aren't things absorbed better through the rectum? Actually, maybe it depends on the properties of the drug. I don't understand her rationale for increasing the dose.

Does she provide a reason? Or some reference regarding the dose?

well in people at least the answer to this question regarding absorption rates is "it depends"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1717195

Quote: For a number of drugs the extent of rectal absorption has been reported to exceed oral values, which may reflect partial avoidance of hepatic first-pass metabolism after rectal delivery.

Quote:Local irritation is increasingly being acknowledged as a possible complication of rectal drug therapy. Long term medication with rectal ergotamine and acetylsalicylic acid, for example, may result in rectal ulceration, and irritation after a single administration of several drugs and formulations has been described. The assessment of tolerability and safety is imperative in the design of rectal formulations.
*emphasis mine*

I would imagine that it is very similar for rats and other animals as well, the rate of absorption and the efficacy is going to vary depending on the drug, what it may or may not be administered with, and how it is normally metabolized.

It seems very irresponsible, to me, for Debbie D to be making blanket statements about medications that way, or anything else for that matter.