Sudden unprovoked aggression...

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khalirats

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
188
Location
Wales, UK
I have three 9 month old boys, Tyrion, Dexter and Milo. Tyrion is the dominant one, Dexter is the smallest and Milo is the biggest. Tyrion and Dexter are brothers, Milo is 4 days older but they've been together since they were babies.

A week or so ago during the daytime, Tyrion fluffed up all his fur and started attacking his cagemates. Dexter was hiding in their sputnik and Milo was in a tube so Tyrion couldnt really get at them. He settled down after an hour or so and all was calm and normal so i thought it was a one off. The next day i noticed a small bite on Milo's tail.

On sunday (august 11th) i was woken up at 6am by screaming in the cage, Tyrion was all fluffed up again and started attacking the others. He had cornered Milo in their plastic igloo and was hitting him with the side of his bum and kicking him with his back leg (im sure you know the move i mean!), then fur started flying and there was a terrible shriek, i grabbed Tyrion out of the cage and stored him in their vet crate so i could check Milo out, he had a huge gash across the back of his neck (only a surface wound thankfully), i didnt know what to do, so i kept them separated. Tyrion was left in the vet crate and the others stayed in the cage. After a while, Tyrion had almost chewed his way out of the crate so i separated the top section of their cage from the bottom and put Tyrion in there. I left them all until about 1:30pm that day, at which point i decided to put them back together on neutral ground (our shower cubicle) and they were all fine, they cuddled up together and started falling asleep. While they were out i put an extra bowl of food in the cage because i thought that could be the problem, and moved everything around plus put a new toy in for them. Everything has been fine until today....

This morning i was woken up again, at 4:30am by screaming, i saw Tyrion JUMP at Milo from across the cage, when i got Tyrion out his mouth was covered in blood. Again i put him in the crate while i checked the other two over, Milo has another small wound on his back that was bleeding a little, Dexter was unharmed. I separated the cage again and have only just put them in the shower cubicle together (its 4pm), again, they're all fine now like nothing ever happened.

Im at a total loss of what to do. I dont want to keep them separated but i dont want them hurt either, Dexter and Milo are absolutely terrified when Tyrion goes on the attack. They're all on treatment for URI's so i dont want them stressed at all, i just dont know whats causing the aggression, its always unprovoked as far as i can tell. Tyrion was aggressive towards me when he was young, i have a few scars on my hands from bites, but he's grown out of that now, and he's still not aggressive towards me at all. With previous rats that kept having dominance issues i used to rub food flavourings into their fur to try and calm the hormonal smells a bit, which seemed to work, so im going to try that with these boys too but i dont know how effective it will be. I dont think he is intentionally injuring, but i cant be sure. They've had the usual tussles for dominance, but never this extreme.

Im aware a neuter may be the best solution, and its been on my mind for a while, but im not willing to risk him going under anaesthetic while he has resp. issues.

If anyone can offer any advice i would be very grateful, thanks.
 
like you said, a neuter would probably be in Tyrion's best interest (btw, love the GOT name!) some things I can think of that may cause the aggression would be

do you, or a friend have any females? if you or someone else is carrying in the scent of a female it might be making your boy edgy

what type of cage do you have? if there isn't enough space he may be getting testy over territory

do you have any other pets? Cats, dogs, anything that may make your ratties feel that prey animal instinct?

has anything changed recently? a move, switching their cage to a new room, a new cage, different bedding.. something?

sometimes you just end up with a testy boy unfortunately. my Elieizer was like that. He had been with his cage mate Gadget since they were babies, but for some reason he suddenly turned very aggressive, toward both me and Gadget, to the point where I had to Separate them until I could get him fixed so he'd mellow out. hormones are a difficult thing!
 
No females around to cause any troubles, i dont know anyone else with rats. I have a dog that comes into their room now and again but they've never been bothered by her before... hmm.. nothing's changed at all, they have a big 3 tier cage and loads of beds etc so plenty of room. I guess the hormones is the most likely thing, hopefully his current treatment will get rid of the respiratory problems so he can have the snip!

They've been out playing together for a few hours (free ranging), they're all settling down in the cage now and Tyrion's gone into his favourite hammock.... i dont know wether to separate them during the night or not... i'll feel awful separating them when they're all happy but like i said before, dont want any more injuries! :gaah:
 
That was also my first question, any female rats in the home? Any new pet? Anything new?
How big is the cage? Have they been treated for mites/lice, sometimes that can cause a rat to become very grumpy.
Ok disregard my first two questions since you just answered them but I'm leaving them here in case someone with a similar problem will see how these factors absolutely affects the males.

So, your boy is being a bully. I would use a time out cage and that might be all you need. A small cage, very small with nothing in it. No food, no water, no toys, nothing. Each time you catch him in the act of bullying, you pull him out and put him in the time out cage for 10 minutes and then return him to the cage. Each and every time you catch him in the act, pull him out and put in the cage. Some rats make the connection fast and don't need the time out cage for long. Keep us posted.
 
They havnt been treated for lice or mites, i have noticed small scabs around their necks/chins/behind the ears but no excessive scratching or hair loss. I asked my vet about it and she said she wouldnt recommend treating for mites while they're on antibiotics for the URI's. Would it hurt? They're all on zithromax at the moment.

I dont have the cage measurements on hand but i used the cage calculator before i got the boys and it said it should be suitable for 5 rats if i remember rightly, i can get the measurements tomorrow though if it would help.

I'll keep putting him in the plastic vet crate when it happens for now, the only other cages i have are ones i used to keep mice in and he'd probably chew those to pieces and ruin them within 10 minutes, if he attacks again when i put him back in his cage should i just pull him straight back out for another 10minutes and carry on doing that until he settles?
 
It's not recommended to treat very ill rats for mites but if they're not in horrible shape (I'm talking close to death), I would definitely treat them. They won't recover from the infection if they have parasites, already they are showing signs of a moderate infestation if they have scabs.

As far as antibiotics, zithro is good but antibiotics work much better for rats when they're combined (i.e. Baytril/Doxy, Baytril/zithro, etc.). Rats often do not get better with only one antibiotic when they're over 6 months of age.

An alternative to a neuter would be a Deslorelin implant, if your vet offers them. It would achieve the same results as a neuter without the same anesthetic risk.
 
I have never heard that it's contraindicated to treat for mites while on antibiotics, unless there's a drug interaction I'm unaware of...
When animals are rescued, that's one of the first things they do, and many rescue animals are in way worse shape than your boys!
He's being a bad boy - the time-out cage is just like making a kid sit in the corner.
Hopefully he's just cranky from bugs, and settles down after he's treated.
 
Okay, i already have some stuff left over from previous rats so will check the expiry and see if its still good. Im still a little wary of using it, Dexter was rushed to the vet 2 weeks ago as he couldnt breathe properly, they put him on oxygen and gave him an injection and thankfully he recovered. They all seem fine in themselves at the moment though, so hopefully it will be okay. They have had combo meds of doxy and baytril a few times before and it didnt help, i asked my vet to order in some zithro as i saw it on a meds chart that i found on here, i wasnt sure if it needed a combo or what to put with it since it said zithro/doxy is best in chronic older rats. They're almost finished their course of it now but if they need more i'll take them back to the vet and ask for some baytril to go with it. They've had these problems since i adopted them and ive never dealth with URI's before so its been a big learning curve with all these meds! The zithro seems to be helping more than the others did at the moment though.

No problems from Tyrion at all last night or this morning, they sat together quite happily munching their breakfast and are back in bed now. We have an old cat carrier basket stored in our garage somewhere so im going to see if i can hunt that out today, i think it will make a suitable naughty cage since he cant chew his way out of it like the plastic vet crate!

Thankyou for the advice, i feel less stressed about it all now, i will keep you posted!
 
I've had success with just Zithro alone but I do at least a month of zithro.

Good luck with the time out cage! I've had plenty of success with it. It really sounds like your boy needs a bit of a lesson, no more than that.
 
I hope so! He's still okay with them at the moment atleast.

Ive been to the vet today and got some baytril to put with the zithro, since ive had such trouble getting rid of their problems i figured it cant hurt? The vet i saw with Dexter the night he had trouble breathing said to give him the zithro for 2 weeks, but i was going to do it for a month anyway as that didnt seem long enough.
 
Sounds like my Throttle! He got a snip snip, but they also had mites.... Its been a few months and we finally are having harmony! Good luck! and healing vibes from us!
 
Im going to get some of this for them http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-Anti-Pa ... B001UALNX2, its got ivermectin in, worked a charm on previous rats.

Thanks for the healing vibes and luck! No more angry outbursts as of yet, they're out for free range time right now and last i checked they were all cuddled up asleep under the bed... their idea of 'exercise'! :roll:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
*Update*

No problems since i last posted, until tonight. During free range time Tyrion was very fluffed up, he had a small squabble with Dexter and they both ended up falling from a storage unit and landing in a heap on the floor. Tyrion stayed fluffy and then bumped into Milo, another squabble there and Milo squealed, so Tyrion went in the time out box for 10 minutes.

Im a bit worried at the moment.. Tyrion was fine after being in the box, he fluffed up and rubbed his bum on Milo then walked off and didnt bother him again, but he was quiet for the rest of their time out of the cage. Tyrion was lying down a lot and not responding to the treat box being shaken (he usually comes running for a treat). After Milo and Dexter went back in the cage, i took Tyrion outside of my room to see if he would perk up but he was still lying down and nibbling anything near him. He's back in the cage now and seems more like himself, but still quiet. He's been dribbling quite a lot of pee, more than usual, but is eating and drinking and moving around the cage a bit. Just seems a bit... 'off' to me. Im wondering if it could be because he got a bit hot (bedroom gets hot when the doors and windows are closed, he seemed to perk up with some more air in here), combined with squabbling with his brothers and getting a bit stressed out. At first i thought maybe he injured himself when they fell on the floor, but cant see/feel anything out of the ordinary..

They were all treated for mites with some Ivomec last saturday, i was thinking of giving another dose tomorrow as i read it could be given once a week for 3 weeks. Ive noticed a change in Tyrion since they were treated for that too, he's been more mellow and relaxed until the small squabbles earlier.
 
There is always the potential that something else is causing him discomfort, and he is just lashing out. Hopefully he's just feeling 'off' today.
I think if you use Ivermectin, you need more than one treatment. I've only used Revolution (Selemectin), so I'm not 100% sure...
 
Seems like he was just having an off night last night, an hour or so after being in the cage he was his normal chirpy self again, and no more arguments!

I found another thread on here about dosing the ivomec with a weight chart etc and it does say to treat again after about 7-10 days after the first dose, so i'll give it to them again today when i clean their cage. It seems to have made a difference anyway, Tyrion is much more chilled out, and the other 2 boys are less grumpy too.
 

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