Seemingly random fights

[Roo]

Badger 15 months old-ish
Freya 11 months old-ish
Nezumi 13 months old-ish
------------------------

Zumi joined our home at the end of last April. All 3 rats generally get along, groom each other and sleep together.

Zumi randomly gets in fights with the others. Rat balls a few times a week. I say random because I can't figure out what the problem is since it's so infrequent.

They live in a single CN, have 3 hammocks and two hidey-boxes, toys, a wheel, plenty of food to each have their own stash and get "out time" for hours every day.
We live in a condo and the CN is in the livingroom with us, which is also where we sleep. If we're home, we're always with them. We're home a lot.

Sometimes the fighting wakes us up in the middle of the night, sometimes it's during the day, sometimes evening... completely random times. We always "break" them up if they're in a ball, and check for wounds. There was never any blood.

Zumi will get into random fights with Freya as well, but other than death-shrieks that scare me into falling off the couch, I haven't noticed anything. Sometimes when Zumi and Badger will fight, Freya will jump between them and back them into opposite ends of the cage.

Woke up to a scuffle this morning between Badger and Zumi. (Badger is the most passive rat ever)
Badger has some scratches on her back and the lower part of her ear is ripped.

It doesn't seem overly serious - but I'd like it if they would just always get along. I've never had rat scuffles before, and it's obvious that it isn't play. This is mostly just a small rant because I've had a poopy morning.

Edit: Didn't sleep well - fixed lots of typos.

 

[jorats]

All males? completely normal. But you could consider neutering.
All females, not so normal and not much you can do other than a "time out" cage.

 

[Roo]

All females. I can't for-sure pinpoint if it's Zumi starting the fights, though I can't imagine Badger ever fighting with anything. Should they both get a short time out or just Zumi?

 

[hopefloats]

My girls fought for a long time. Still do on and off. Mally would literally fight with who ever was in heat. I had a horrible time with my girls when they would sniff the other boys, it did not stop till they lived with them, then I finally had peace.

Do you have males in the house too? or just girls?

 

[Roo]

Just the three girls, but having males would make sense.

Interesting about the heat thing. Freya was in heat a little bit ago - but even when she isn't she humps Zumi a bazillion times a day. Do you think it can literally drive Zumi to the point of insanity? Where she'd take it out on Badger?

Lately I've assumed the humping was Freya saying "hey, stop fighting - I'm the Big Cheese in this house"

Zumi and Freya are boxing right now =/

 

[hopefloats]

usually when one humps it can be a dominate thing. It would drive anyone mad getting humped. My boy does that to the other boys during intros, you can see them handle it for a little bit, then all heck breaks loose. Mr humpy pants gets pinned.


Girls can be loud when scuffling i have found. Some of my best noise makers are my girls during a rat ball. They rarely have teeth marks. Usually it isnt so much a rat ball but one is trying to pin the other and the one is fighting it tooth and nail. But the one being pinned and screaming is usually the instigator in my house. You might not notice her doing it, till you hear it. Lucy runs up to my girls and pulls their hair, over and over again. then she screams like a brat when Isis doesnt want it to go on.

One could be causing havoc and the others are showing her what their limit is, she just isnt getting it. they could see her unstable with what she does.

I would put my money on the heat it always causes problems in my cage with my girls. Or pain, i learned fast that a little bit of pain can make a girl freak out and go for the kill.


I had to really watch my girls to see the body language they were giving off, it can be hard to see but you will be able to pin point the problem child and who needs a time out. it may not be the one doing the biting that they see, but the one being bit because she is throwing their peace off.
My girl bindi, has been hit in the line of fire a few times when one of the girls are mad, so it does happen.

 

[jorats]

Doh! Thanks Peggy for mentioning the heat cycle.
Yes, perfectly normal then with intact females. Since I only have spayed girls I forget about them going into heat.
But the time out cage could still work. But I would only do the aggressor. Observe your rats carefully to see who that is. Get a very small cage with nothing in it. When the bully is being a bully, pull her out put in time out cage for about 10 minutes. Do this each and every time

 

[Roo]

Thanks, both of you.

None of them are in heat at the moment. When Badger is, she doesn't get humpy - she just runs around and wiggles her ears. I've never seen Zumi humpy at anything either. But I can easily see that with Freya.

I have small reason to believe that between Zumi and Badger it's over food. They have plenty, but Badger doesn't stash any. She always takes from Freya or Zumi's stash. Maybe that bugs Zumi, I dunno. lol

I keep trying to watch them, but they notice me so easily! I'll have to contact the army and ask if they have extra camo gear for blending in. :wink:

I do have a time-out cage set up in perpetration.

 

[Roo]

Well things continue.

I've spent multiple times staring at the CN for a half hour at different distances. I've learned very little.
Freya still constantly chases Zumi, trying to hump her.

I did notice that one fight broke out between Zumi and Badger because of food. Everybody got treats (noodles!). Zumi was stashing a bunch, Badger was upstairs with two noodles; eating. Zumi would sneak up and take one, then run away. She came back up again - Badger froze and shrunk back into the back of her hidey-box. She looked terrified. Zumi grabbed the noodle out of her mouth and ran off. I took it back from Zumi (maybe a bad move..? I felt bad for Badgey.) and gave it to Badger - Zumi came back up to take it and they got in a fight.

Another fight seemed random. I changed their water bottle and they were both takin' a drink - then suddenly rat fight! Had to separate them for a hour, then they were fine all night.

Yesterday they were both in the lower CN just staring at each other for 10 minutes. I picked Zumi up and Badger ran upstairs into the pocket hammock.

I woke up today at about 8:30 because Badger was breathing horribly. Very raspy/wheezy. Getting a vet appointment for her. I hope it isn't because of stress from Zumi.

Badger freezes any time Zumi comes near her in the cage. Out of the cage they're fine. They run around together and follow each other for hours without bickering.

</rant>

 

[jorats]

Zumi is very bossy. When the fight broke out with the water bottle, that would have been the time to take zumi out and put in her time out cage. Give that a try for a while see if that helps

 

[Roo]

Okay, thanks Jo!

I did put her in time out once for about ten minutes. She didn't pick any fights for the rest of the night - so I think if I can keep at it and catch her often that it really will help!

:hugs:

 

[jorats]

Okay, thanks Jo!

I did put her in time out once for about ten minutes. She didn't pick any fights for the rest of the night - so I think if I can keep at it and catch her often that it really will help!

:hugs:

I've never had to use the time out cage but my sister did and my mom and they said it worked great and I believe they only needed to do it a few times.

 

[Roo]

If you could put all your skills in a bottle and let me borrow them for a day or two, I'd really appreciate that. ;-)

 

[hopefloats]

I used the time out cage for ferrets and it worked. I never had any luck with timing out my rats. I have preferred the dominance thing that jo does over the girls when they get to lippy with another rat. I am glad it is helping, you can also stop it before she gets to lippy, once you see her start to get attitude put your hand over her. with some of my girls I have found it to be more effective to change their attitude before it escalates than to wait till it escalates then punish. Sometimes it takes a few techniques to get these girls in line.

I still prefer girl intro's over boys even through girls seem to hang on to their attitude longer LOL

You will enjoy the day it stops! it will be a major accomplishment on your part!

 

[Roo]

They never ever argued when they first started hanging out. The first few months were completely fine. Zumi must be comfy enough to show her true colours now. ;-)

Thanks for the advice of the hand over the top - I totally forgot about that one, but now that you mention it I do remember seeing Jo do it in a video. I did pin her down a couple times (just gently pushing her to the ground) and she squeaked at me in protest just as she does with the other ratties but stopped the behavior.

Seems from what you guys are saying, I just have to keep at it =)

 

[hopefloats]

It will, mine girls were fine for a few weeks, minor scuffles then world war 3 started. It was an ugly month of doing this stuff, I even put both the two that were fighting on a chair alone, to scare them into cuddling.....

Now I have 7 happy girls, who cuddle with the one they fought with. It is worth it in the end.

 

[jorats]

Keep at it is right.

 

[Roo]

Zumi is in time out as I type.
She's so cute - it's hard for me. But don't tell her that! :giggle:

Now I have 7 happy girls, who cuddle with the one they fought with. It is worth it in the end.

I think Freya and I are both up for this! We've both been intervening when we can.

:cheer:


ETA: Ha. As soon as I took her out of time out, she "attacked" Badger so right back in she goes!

 

[jorats]

That's good. These are all opportunities to show her what's acceptable and what's not.