Search for causes other than URI for respiratory distress

[Unepuce]

I turn to you, my respected rat experts, in my quest of a solution for my Penelope, who is not too well these days. I'm sorry this post is so lenghty, but I want to provide as much info as possible.

I rescued Penelope at the SPCA in August. She is a tiny dumbo agouti that was said to be under one year old, who adjusted very well to my colony of 5 despite being the most nervous rat I have seen so far. She was fine the first few weeks, and then got URI and the abs to get rid of it. She improved, got back on the meds, and I believed she was a chronic up to last week.

At first, it was the classic crackling sounds in the lungs, and then the labored abdominal breathing, which never left her and even is getting worse. We tried every single abs available to rats on her - Baytril, Doxy, Chlor Palm, Tylan, and I am forgetting the other one - and according to my vet, the only one left to try is one for humans that apparently was just approved on rats. She also is on Metacam, which I decided she'll be on for life. A couple of months ago, she started making sounds while breathing. This would last for 2 to 3 minutes, she would be acting normal, like this was nothing. As her breathing got more and more labored in the past couple of weeks, I rushed out on Sunday to buy a air purifier, thinking that would be soothing her and relieve my asthma as well. It worked until yesterday. Yesterday evening, she was again making those sounds while breathing, but this time, I could see this was bugging her. The second time, it started while she was eating and she stopped and started moving around the CN, like she was in pain and trying to find a position to ease her breathing. I rushed to the bathroom, ran a hot shower for a few minutes, turned it off and took her in with me for about 5 minutes - it did help her. Then later, as I was going to bed, the noises and moving around started again so I brought her to the bathroom with me once more - and she was fine when I went to bed. This morning, I heard the noises while coming out of the bathroom but they stopped right away and Penny looked fine. She ate with appetite, took her med mixture without a problem. The only other symptom I can report is that she started shying away from us and the other rats and stood by herself more - which is not surprising if she is in pain.

I also have to mention I keep my 6 rats and 3 guinea pigs in the same room, so there might be some allergies going on there, hence the air purifier.

In bed last night, I was weighing pros and cons of PTS and every single pros I found weighed zero in the balance - no more giving meds type of thing - until the thought that she wasn't getting any sleep crossed my mind and that started to weight more. I then wondered whether she was treated for the right problem - what if this was not an infection, but something that required something different than abs? A few weeks ago, I had an Xray taken to make sure her heart was normal size, as I had seen very similar symptoms in my Chatouille who had that issue.

I feel useless, I so much want my Penny to get better, to get some sleep, and to be able to play the way she used to.

Any idea? My vet told be about using a nebulizer as a palliative treatment and I responded that if we had to come the extent of palliative treatment, I'd rather let her go than have her drag her suffering for no reason, but now, I am not so sure. What if she too has asthma? What if this is exactely what she needs?

Help!!!

Nancy

 

[Chevalrose]

Man, that's a tough one. I mean, you could always try the nebulizer and see if it helps, or even just try getting an inhaler...that's something quick that, if that IS the issue, you'd see it right away. If that doesn't work, then it might be time to say goodbye.

I'm assuming they looked at her lungs too when they took the x-ray...cancer in the lungs would be my only other guess.

 

[Unepuce]

When I saw the X-Ray, I was not looking for tumor or anything, her heart was normal and that's all that mattered to me at the time. My vet had me notice though that she had a lot of scarring on the lungs... Poor baby...

 

[Unepuce]

Oups... posted too fast... I wanted to ask about the inhaler. What is it? Is it anything like the ones we use for ourselves?

 

[jorats]

What did the scarring look like, are you sure it's not pulmonary abscesses?

 

[temblabamomo]

I'm no expert, but you said the x-ray was taken a few weeks ago, and I just wondered if it was possible that during the time lapse something such as a tumor could have sprung up and started compressing her lungs, altho' I'm not sure that would have on and off breathing sounds accompanying it...

 

[Chevalrose]

The reason I ask is because Tobi had a similar thing going on with him. We tried a bunch of abs and the steaming all all that jazz. It also did go off and on, at least until the end. We ended up getting x-rays done and the vet said he had asthma but also cancer in his lungs, double whammy.

 

[Unepuce]

I'm reading scaring things... I guess I'll try to shovel my way to the vet for another X-ray.

Jo, the scarring was longitudinal (lengthwise). Nothing looked like a tumor at first glance, but I might want to call the vet and ask them to take another, looking for a tumor?

OMG... not my sweet Penny... :cry4:

 

[jennifervb]

What kind of cleaning products are you using? By that I mean everything from household and window cleaners to laundry detergents.

This is not the first post I have seen on the Rat Shack regarding unexplained respiratory issues.

Ask Jorats about it. She can send you the presentation I provided to her to see if any of what's in there could apply.

Let me know if you have any questions at all. It would be terrible for you to have to euthanize little Penny if her issue is something that is easily resolved through a change in brands. :sad3:

 

[jorats]

I've been meaning to put something together about household cleaners, it's just the bad time of year for this. I'll do it up in the new year.

Look for pulmonary abscesses which can take on any shape. It doesn't really present itself like a tumour exactly.

 

[Unepuce]

Jennifer, I actually don't use any cleaner in that room besides water and vinegar. I use it to clean the cages on Saturdays and to pick up the dust on furniture as well. No windex, pledge, Mr Clean, nothing but water and vinegar. And I have a H2O mop for the floor, so no cleaner there either...

 

[SQ]

Heart issues don't necessarily mean the heart will enlarge. You can test dose with enalapril (0.25mg/454.4 g twice a day).
If it helps the atenolol (1 mg/454.4 g, twice a day)is added. Furosemide (1-2 mg/454.4g ) is used as needed.

If the heart is enlarged then digoxin (0.0025mg/454.4g. twice a day) is added to the above meds.

 

[ratamataz]

I'm not sure if you'll find this helpful but maybe it is worth a shot?

Try giving her pro-biotic. The refrigerated kind you buy at the grocery, drug or health food store, in capsule form. Mix some up in her favorite soft food. I can't really describe how much to use, I just eyeball it myself. Just crack the capsule open and sprinkle on a good-sized little pile onto about a tablespoon of soft food. Give a strong-ish dose. Try to imagine what, approx, two capsules to us would be for one rat. You can't overdose it, her body will just pass it right through, it is completely harmless. Also add two to three drops of echinacea tincture. Use the kind with alcohol, it is more effective than the non-alcoholic kind, and it won't harm her.

The practice behind pro-biotic use is that it floods the body with good bacteria and flushes out and replaces the bad. (ie from an infection.) It will also replace the good bacteria in her system that has been destroyed by antibiotics.

I've been doing this for my rats, one week on, two weeks off, in an attempt to keep their immune systems strong. Above is the dosage I use for my rats, so there is proof that it won't harm your girl.

Just a suggestion in addition to more conventional treatments, if anything it is sure to give her immune system a much needed boost which is always a good thing.

My past rats were like your Penelope, not responding at all to antibiotics despite everything I tried. Same ones as you, starting with baytril, baytril/doxy, just doxy, ending with chlor palm. I feel your pain, m'dear. I hope in the end something works for her. :cuddle:

 

[Moon]

I'm with Holly, wondering if you need to try heart meds. Often the only way to rule out heart problems is medication.

 

[victoria]

I'm with Holly, wondering if you need to try heart meds. Often the only way to rule out heart problems is medication.

Nancy and I go to the same vet and they will not give heart meds without something to warrant it on the x-ray. I PM's her earlier with some suggestions and to offer my nebulizer if needed, hopefully something will be figured out.

 

[Unepuce]

Ratamataz - you might get something there. As Penny is on abs and have been for so long, I already gave her a bit of Benebac every day, and once the enlarged heart theory was ruled out, I threw in the same little tiny bit of Booster that made wonders for Mac and Piccolo - 0.05 cc. The benebac was actually given to try and get rid of her diarrhea/soft stools, caused by the abs, no doubt.

Well, for the last 2 days, I have been giving her much more benebac (0.2 to 0.3 cc) and last night and this morning, she was breathing fine, no distresse eventhough it remains very laboured, and even stools were almost back to normal. I will keep up with higher doses of probiotics, try to treat her on yogourt in the weekend (harder during the week with longer hours at the office and the 2-hour wait before and after the abs) and maybe even raise her intake on Booster. Keeping my fingers crossed - but I saw her this morning moving around the cage like a little squirrel - she looks much, much better! I keep my fingers crossed!!!

I will try and post a picture of her this weekend so you can all see why she is so precious - she's got that weird little tiny face with those dumbo ears and big eyes that make her look like an innocent and defenseless baby... :heart:

 

[jennifervb]

Jennifer, I actually don't use any cleaner in that room besides water and vinegar. I use it to clean the cages on Saturdays and to pick up the dust on furniture as well. No windex, pledge, Mr Clean, nothing but water and vinegar. And I have a H2O mop for the floor, so no cleaner there either...

Fumes and toxins travel so if you are using them in other rooms, that may impact her location.

You also need to be careful of your laundry detergents. If you are doing rat bedding in any of your normal detergents then you are subjecting your rats to sodium hydroxide which is highly agitating to the respiratory tract. As an asthmatic, I speak from experience.

I used to use normal detergents and could never figure out why I tightened up after washing my bedsheets. Now I know why and I haven't had a problem since.

It bugs the he!! out of me that my rats were subject to it since all of them suffered from respiratory illnesses. :sad3:

 

[ratamataz]

Ratamataz - you might get something there. As Penny is on abs and have been for so long, I already gave her a bit of Benebac every day, and once the enlarged heart theory was ruled out, I threw in the same little tiny bit of Booster that made wonders for Mac and Piccolo - 0.05 cc. The benebac was actually given to try and get rid of her diarrhea/soft stools, caused by the abs, no doubt.

Well, for the last 2 days, I have been giving her much more benebac (0.2 to 0.3 cc) and last night and this morning, she was breathing fine, no distresse eventhough it remains very laboured, and even stools were almost back to normal. I will keep up with higher doses of probiotics, try to treat her on yogourt in the weekend (harder during the week with longer hours at the office and the 2-hour wait before and after the abs) and maybe even raise her intake on Booster. Keeping my fingers crossed - but I saw her this morning moving around the cage like a little squirrel - she looks much, much better! I keep my fingers crossed!!!

I will try and post a picture of her this weekend so you can all see why she is so precious - she's got that weird little tiny face with those dumbo ears and big eyes that make her look like an innocent and defenseless baby... :heart:

Oh, I hope she pulls through!! I will keep my fingers crossed for her as well!

Heh heh, I've never even heard of benebac. Just looked it up! Its neat that it has a syringe for proper dosage! I always have regular "human" acidophilus on hand, so I just use that and eyeball it. I'm not sure if benebac comes refrigerated or not, but the pro-biotic that needs to be kept cold is generally more effective because the bacteria is more "live". Let me know how her continued higher dosage works out! The reason why I started giving it to my rats on a preventative basis is because I successfully treated my canary with pro-biotic for his respiratory infection when he was just a baby chick, as antibiotics would have killed him. It's a very accepted antibiotic alternative for birds, who are so delicate that antibiotic generally does more harm than good. It worked so well, that I couldn't help but be curious if the same method would work for rats. Good bacteria in, bad bacteria out.

I plan on using myself as a guinea pig if I ever come down with an infection. Just last week I came down with a cold and plowed myself with acidophilus and echinacea, and the cold was gone in 5 days, whereas I am usually sick for a couple weeks. It was moving down to my chest which almost always indicates an infection in my case but it didn't get any farther than a couple of coughs and that was that.

Anyways I'll stop babbling, alternative medicine just really excites me.

Try giving her echinacea as well, do at least 2 drops as she is already ill. I give my healthy rats 2 drops each just as a preventative, so if they were sick I would double that to 4 drops each. Echinacea needs a much higher dose than people realize to be effective during illness. Most people give their rats only 1 drop, and that dosage is not going to do anything.

Keep us updated on how she is doing!! Sending some rattie love from my handsome boys over her way. :kisses:

 

[Unepuce]

Good news! Penny seems better so far - no trace of diarrhea yesterday, she's lively and playful, but the abdominal breathing is still very present. I'll keep boosting her immune system and see if it helps - but will most likely see the vet anyway between now and New Year's Eve to see if there is still signs of URI...

As promised, here are pictures of jolie Penny...

Penny just a few days after I adopted her :heart:


Penny as of Thursday


Penny wrestling with my huge bully Pollux :giggle:

 

[mamarat]

Penny is adorable. Fingers crossed for your sweetie.