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MissGuardian

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
2,033
Location
Norway
I know this is a rescue forum, but I thought maybe someone has an idea anyway..
There is a discussion going on over here, about how to improve rat health, and why your rats generally seem to live longer than ours..
Correct me if I´m wrong, but it seems like a lot of you have rats that gets over 24-30 months?
The average lifespan here is 1year-18 months..
Most of the rats are from breeding mills, and I guess the problem is at least partially the same over there, but your rats seem to live longer anyway..
Does anyone have any views on why, and how ratties health can be improved?
I don´t know if you understand what I mean, but I don´t really know how to explain it better.. :gaah:
 
Good healthy food, good vet care.
Our rats have very very poor genetic backgrounds here in Canada.
I find that a large % of my rats have developed conjestive heart failure - some as young as 9 months of age.
A great book to get is the Rat Health Care book (see book section at www.ratfanclub.org - ignore the bit on home euthensia as it is inhumane)
This book is a very valuable resource and I take it with me whenever I go to the vet.
 
SQ said:
Good healthy food, good vet care.
Our rats have very very poor genetic backgrounds here in Canada.
I find that a large % of my rats have developed conjestive heart failure - some as young as 9 months of age.
A great book to get is the Rat Health Care book (see book section at http://www.ratfanclub.org - ignore the bit on home euthensia as it is inhumane)
This book is a very valuable resource and I take it with me whenever I go to the vet.
I know good food and all that, but what can be done to improve the health/genetics itself?
Is there anything that can be done from a responsible breeder perspective?(please keep in mind that we don´t have the same problems with homeless rats over here).
I don´t understand genetics at all.. That´s why I´m asking.. I´m not planning on breeding myself, but I am curious if anything can be done..
 
I am not and will never be a breeder. A brief synopsis though would be that breeders breed their healthiest rats that come from a good source and have pedigrees. They wait a very long time to breed the rats to make sure tumors, CHF etc haven't developed. Unfortunately females can't wait as long as males. They also breed for myco resistant rats. No rat that has ever had a uri should be bred. The breeder keeps excellent health records, including rats adopted out. Things run in families, so it has tobe a healthy family, breeding a rat with a sister with tons of tumors for example is not acceptable. Breeders also shouldn't breed rats that are high whites, to avoid MC. Also, breeders need to research heritable diseases and other genetic issues with rats.
 
That's usually what's done here.. I've not been into rats too long, but the quality of rats have gotten a lpt worse.. My guess is from rats in pet stores.. But I do not know.. We also have very few breeders(around six in the county, so there are very few rats that are suitable for breeding.. Very strict import rules do 't help either I guess.. if i would ever breed, I'd probably end up keeping them all:p
 
A breeder in Canada once had rats shipped from California which did in fact lengthen her breeding stock's lifespan. But since you have import rules against that, it's not an option.
They would need to be diligent in only breeding their healthiest rats.
 
jorats said:
A breeder in Canada once had rats shipped from California which did in fact lengthen her breeding stock's lifespan. But since you have import rules against that, it's not an option.
They would need to be diligent in only breeding their healthiest rats.
I think it's possible, but complicated and expensive. Several of the litters i'vr seen had one or both parents imported, and one of them are importing from Poland.. I want to contribute if I can, so we can get better rats, but I can't afford having a litter, and I don't understand genetics.. Would lending out (good) males be considered helpful?(with help from his breeder)
There are fairly strict breeding recommendations here from the rat society/forum.. No breeding on hairless, manx rats or I believe it was black eyed white..
 
It's hard for us to say what is ok and isn't because we are not in your area dealing with those issues. But lending males to breed can change them. Once bred some males can become more dominant and you'd have to do intro all over again to return the male to his colony.
 
jorats said:
A breeder in Canada once had rats shipped from California which did in fact lengthen her breeding stock's lifespan. But since you have import rules against that, it's not an option.
They would need to be diligent in only breeding their healthiest rats.
Someone just mentioned that just to apply for a permit to import rats here costs about 170$..Transport and everything else they demand is on top of that again..
 
So it's back to breeding only the healthy rats. Don't breed males until they are almost 2 years old, in top health, no tumours, no lung infections and no aggression. Females you can wait till 8 months old and only 1 litter so you don't tax her body since they don't live long.
 
jorats said:
It's hard for us to say what is ok and isn't because we are not in your area dealing with those issues. But lending males to breed can change them. Once bred some males can become more dominant and you'd have to do intro all over again to return the male to his colony.
Thanks for the info. I'll definitely have some thinking to do.. No matter what it won't happen until at least one of my current trio passes, since I can only have three at the same time.. They turned one in December, so hopefully there will be a while until that:) and males here anrwn't bred until they are over a year to minimize the risk of them passing on dominant/aggressive genes..

I might even take in a rescue(NOT for breeding) if a lone male shows up:) I don't know yet..
 
jorats said:
So it's back to breeding only the healthy rats. Don't breed males until they are almost 2 years old, in top health, no tumours, no lung infections and no aggression. Females you can wait till 8 months old and only 1 litter so you don't tax her body since they don't live long.
Yeah. They aren't bred until they are AT LEAST a year old here, and no dominant males are bred. I don't know too much yet tho, because I just joined that forum last summer.. But that's what I remember.. Generally they only have one or two litters at the most. I'm noy getting females again, so that won't be an issue for me, but thanks for the info!
 
MissGuardian said:
jorats said:
So it's back to breeding only the healthy rats. Don't breed males until they are almost 2 years old, in top health, no tumours, no lung infections and no aggression. Females you can wait till 8 months old and only 1 litter so you don't tax her body since they don't live long.
Yeah. They aren't bred until they are AT LEAST a year old here, and no dominant males are bred. I don't know too much yet tho, because I just joined that forum last summer.. But that's what I remember.. Generally they only have one or two litters at the most. I'm noy getting females again, so that won't be an issue for me, but thanks for the info!
That's good, that's usually how long good American breeders wait. It's usually something they have to work up to though, as many lines start losing fertility at that age...but you can select for rats that have good fertility and good childbirths up into older age. Waiting until the female is a year old also gives you a better chance to evaluate her...as by the time her child is ready to be bred or not, she is now two years old so you have a better idea of if she is going to have tumors. People that breed them at four five months can have multiple generations of rats before the original mom has developed tumors.

I do think you'll have much more info on a different forum, not only is this a rescue forum, but it is a Canadian forum, and in their entire country they have maybe a few (literally) good breeders :?

Oh also, while importing is expensive, I think it is the best way to go about it. Unfortunately breeding well is a very expensive endeavor.
 
Dazzle87 said:
MissGuardian said:
jorats said:
So it's back to breeding only the healthy rats. Don't breed males until they are almost 2 years old, in top health, no tumours, no lung infections and no aggression. Females you can wait till 8 months old and only 1 litter so you don't tax her body since they don't live long.
Yeah. They aren't bred until they are AT LEAST a year old here, and no dominant males are bred. I don't know too much yet tho, because I just joined that forum last summer.. But that's what I remember.. Generally they only have one or two litters at the most. I'm noy getting females again, so that won't be an issue for me, but thanks for the info!
That's good, that's usually how long good American breeders wait. It's usually something they have to work up to though, as many lines start losing fertility at that age...but you can select for rats that have good fertility and good childbirths up into older age. Waiting until the female is a year old also gives you a better chance to evaluate her...as by the time her child is ready to be bred or not, she is now two years old so you have a better idea of if she is going to have tumors. People that breed them at four five months can have multiple generations of rats before the original mom has developed tumors.

I do think you'll have much more info on a different forum, not only is this a rescue forum, but it is a Canadian forum, and in their entire country they have maybe a few (literally) good breeders :?

Oh also, while importing is expensive, I think it is the best way to go about it. Unfortunately breeding well is a very expensive endeavor.
Yeah I know, but this is the only forum I am on:)
Yeah importing is expensive..
It seems like most breeders here does it to some extent anyway tho..
I´ll definitely need to learn more before I decide what to do.. But I was planning on that anyway tho..
If I´m lucky, its at least a year until I even have to think about it(meaning where I get new rats from)..
I just like to know every side of the case before I decide if it´s something for me..
If I had a litter of ratties, my parents would probably kill me :giggle: I have a limit of three rats both from my parents and myself :giggle:
 
It is possible for a breeder to breed for better health, but it is NOT easy. It is one of the hardest tasks of being a good breeder. The reason for this is health is not strictly genetic, it is affected by BOTH genetics AND environment, separately and as interactions with each other. In order to accomplish better health, the breeder must first control the environment in which their rats are raised. While a breeder cannot control the environment of those rats taken to other homes, which must be taken into account with health records (does NOT mean those records should be discarded, but a breeder has to look more closely and carefully for trends), a breeder CAN control their own environment. This means good nutrition (best nutrition the breeder can provide), proper bedding, clean cages, enough room in each cage, plenty of exercise and mental, emotional, and physical stimulation, highest quality medical care, good air quality, appropriate environmental temperature and humidity, and so on. If one of these isn't right, health can and will be affected. In my honest opinion, cost should NOT be a factor either. If its too expensive, that person should not be breeding. Doesn't mean you necessarily have to be "rich" to be a breeder, but you SHOULD have a steady, stable income and know how to budget properly in order to afford the high quality care for those animals.

Once the breeder has taken care of environmental health, they can tackle genetic health. This is the hard part. A breeder who breeds for better health, has to work backwards, so to speak. You can't just breed two rats together and automatically know the babies are going to be healthy. Ideally health issues will not happen until long AFTER those rats are bred, so you really do not know what to expect until the babies are already on the ground. This is where good record keeping is extremely important. Good, detailed record keeping means you know what to expect and what you need to work with. Just because a health issue does turn up, does not mean the entire line has to be scrapped, it DOES mean some very serious decisions might need to be made. First, you need to know WHERE that health issue came from. If the rats are extremely outcrossed, you will never know, and the issue could very well be spread throughout the entire "line" (making it very hard, if not impossible, to breed out). If the rats are linebred and/or inbred, you can better determine where the issue came from, if you know how to make the right crosses (this is where research and good genetic knowledge come in handy). Once you know where the issue came from, you have to decide if it is worthwhile to continue breeding those rats, and how to go about doing it in such a way the issue will be eliminated, or if you should avoid using those rats, and if so which rats are you going to use instead.

When an issue shows up, you also need to determine if it is actually genetic. Not every health issue is genetic or even strongly genetic. There are MANY kinds of tumors, and not all of them have a genetic component. Those that do maybe strongly genetic, or weakly genetic, they may be genetic with strong environmental factors, they may be genetic but sex-influenced (NOT the same as sex-linked). You need to figure out what it is and what to do about it. For this reason, it is really important to seriously consider having biopsies, necropsies, and full lab analysis done to determine WHAT exactly it is (in many cases just looking at the outside or knowing if it is benign or malignant is NOT enough), which will help you determine if it is actually genetic. If an issue does seem to run in the line (this rat got it, the mother got it, mother's father got it, his father had it, his father's mother had it, etc), then there's a good chance it is genetic. If it runs in the direct line and shows itself in every generation, it is probably strongly genetic. If it shows up sporadically in the indirect line (relatives who are not direct ancestors), then it may or may not be genetic, or may be genetic but strongly influenced by environment. If it shows up sporadically in the direct line, it may be genetic but only weakly so, or may not be genetic at all (if a non-genetic health issue continuously shows up - you need to look at your environment and determine what you are doing wrong to fix that). When a genetic issue does rear its ugly head, you need to determine how strongly genetic it is, how much environment affects it, and what to do about it. Some issues ARE serious enough to stop the whole line right then and there. Others you can work with the line to breed it out, BUT you might want to seriously consider keeping all/most of the babies you produce, knowing there ARE going to be some affected rats and it is NOT fair to place those rats, knowingly or otherwise, to adopters, PLUS you want the best records on your animals possible and you can only get those records by keeping and caring for the animals yourself.

Besides keeping records, breeding later helps. The older a rat, the more information you have not only about THAT rat, but its family members as well. A female can safely be bred at 6-8 months for the first time. For many, it is safe to push that back even further to 9 months, 10 months, maybe even up to 12 months. IF the line you are working with has been regularly bred at young ages, I would start only a little bit older (if the females were regularly bred at 4-5 months, start at 6-7 months), and gradually push it back. Don't push it back ever generation, but every couple of generations. So the first 2 or 3 generations you might breed at 6-7 months, then the next 2 or 3 you will breed at 7-8 months, the next 2 or 3 at 8-9 months, and so on. Gradually push it back every few generations. WATCH those rats, determine which ones are maturing slowly. If one rat grows up fast and stops growing at 5 months of age, but another rat grows slowly and doesn't finish growing until 8 months of age, breed the rat that matured at 8 months instead of 5 months. By doing this you can gradually push back maturation, which will also help push back longevity (generally speaking, animals who mature slower, live longer). It is also important to make sure you are present for births. This may not be possible in all cases, but you can set up a live webcam to keep an eye on the girls while you are at work (assuming you work an office job and you have a supervisor who allows you to do so). In my opinion, it is IMPORTANT to be present for ALL births, because you need to know when something goes wrong. It can be a matter of life and death, not just to the babies, but to the mother herself. If you hold a job that is very strict and will NOT let you take time off, will NOT let you watch a webcam, and will NOT let you leave early when the mother is having issues, you might have a problem. You could very easily come home one day from work on her due date and find her dead in a bloody mess. Not to be graphic, but that's the potential reality, ESPECIALLY when working with lineages that were "historically" bred young and you start pushing that breeding age back.

With males, the only danger of waiting longer is fertility. If males in the line were routinely bred at 8 months or younger, start breeding them at 1 year instead. Push it back to 18 months, then eventually you might be able to push it back to 2 years. Like females, don't do it all at once, or you might lose the whole line when that one crucial male turns out to be infertile at 18-24 months of age. Also about breeding males - the temperament of the male should absolutely NOT change after he is bred. If it does, you are looking at not only health issues, but temperament issues as well. Temperament IS genetic. Temperament CAN be improved or regressed through the right or wrong selections. Really, males should have NO problem being separated for a few days or even a week for breeding, and then put back together. Reintroductions should NOT be a lengthy involved process. Ideally, introductions to strangers shouldn't be an involved process either. In my opinion this is related indirectly to health as well. Hormonal, nervous, anxious, aggressive, etc animals ARE more stressed than happy, laid back, easy going animals. Stress DOES affect the immune system, tears it down, makes the animal more susceptible to disease. So by breeding for better tempered animals, not only do you have better pets who get along with eachother better, BUT you will also have healthier animals. It certainly is possible to breed better tempered animals, but like health it can be difficult. You need to KNOW what you are looking at, you need to KNOW how to pick out nature from nurture, you need to KNOW how to make the right selections to breed better tempered animals.

There is so much more that goes into it than this. It is a long, involved, thankless process (NO I mean it, really, it IS a thankless process). If you are seriously considering breeding at ANY time in the future, start your research NOW. Don't just look at the "hows", look at the "whys". And don't just talk to breeders, involve yourself in rescue as well. You need to see the issues out there first hand to know what you are dealing with. Be careful when talking to breeders - find out what kind of breeders they are and whether you agree with their practices or not. Make sure you understand how and why they are making their selections, and make sure those how's and why's make sense. An obvious example: a breeder dealing with good respiratory health but with mammary tumors running in the line shouldn't be trying to breed out tumors by selecting rats with clear lungs; while clear lungs and respiratory health ARE important and SHOULD be part of the selection, it has little to do with the tumors. Be prepared for criticism - you will get a LOT of it. If you want any kind of recognition or thanks, don't bother, you will NEVER get it, or if you do, it will be rare compared to the criticism you get instead. If you are discouraged easily, don't bother, you will see a LOT of failure before you see ANY improvement. If you are impatient, don't bother, progress happens over time, it will be YEARS before you start seeing ANY trends, let alone improvement.
 
I think most of what you have said, is being done about breeding.
A male is not bred if he don´t take well to newcomers(usually both young ones and adults - I think that goes for the female as well).
With my males(so far all pet store rats, but that´s gonna stop now), I have never had a problem with introing again - for example if one have had surgery hand haven´t had contact with the rest. After over a week, they have still been put right together again with no issues what so ever.
I am going to try to start investigating the subject now, and I am meeting two breeders(the breeder of my Nirvana, and another breeder) in a couple of weeks hopefully.
I agree with the money issue too. Is it as expensive if you´re only lending out a male? Having a litter/having a female is not a option here.

I will also investigate more about rescuing, so I can see more what is the right choice for me personally. I want to rescue too, but there are little to no rats to rescue in my area.. I don´t know if I have enough experience for it either yet.. But time will show really..
 
MissGuardian said:
I agree with the money issue too. Is it as expensive if you´re only lending out a male? Having a litter/having a female is not a option here.

If you were only studding out males, the only costs you would have to worry about are general care and medical costs. HOWEVER - if ANY of your rats were to be bred, you would still want to give them the highest quality care available, because those rats will be passing on their genes to other generations, so you want them to be healthy. But that said, its still not the same costs you would expect if you were actually raising a litter. (Babies really DO eat more than their adult counterparts, and as a result poop more, so both your food and bedding costs are going to be higher, there is the potential for additional medical care costs, then there are toys, cages, etc. When actually raising litters, everything seems to increase exponentially.)

Here studding out rats is usually frowned on, because there really is a high risk for disease. However I understand Europe is in a different situation than North America, so perhaps the risks are not the same. I personally would still be cautious though, and be careful to practice good quarantine procedures.
 
Sorraia said:
MissGuardian said:
I agree with the money issue too. Is it as expensive if you´re only lending out a male? Having a litter/having a female is not a option here.

If you were only studding out males, the only costs you would have to worry about are general care and medical costs. HOWEVER - if ANY of your rats were to be bred, you would still want to give them the highest quality care available, because those rats will be passing on their genes to other generations, so you want them to be healthy. But that said, its still not the same costs you would expect if you were actually raising a litter. (Babies really DO eat more than their adult counterparts, and as a result poop more, so both your food and bedding costs are going to be higher, there is the potential for additional medical care costs, then there are toys, cages, etc. When actually raising litters, everything seems to increase exponentially.)

Here studding out rats is usually frowned on, because there really is a high risk for disease. However I understand Europe is in a different situation than North America, so perhaps the risks are not the same. I personally would still be cautious though, and be careful to practice good quarantine procedures.

If nobody would lend out males, there would be no breeding here at all probably..
I already do care for them as best as I can with food, cage, bedding, vet care etc..
 
Why don't they just keep both sexes? To me it makes little sense, especially since you have to trust someone about the health, temperament, etc of the rat being studded out. If I were a breeder I'm not sure I'd want to do that. Just curious what the reasoning behind it is :)
 

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