Random bullying

[hsm]

So, I introduced two babies into my rat family back in early March. Introductions went swimmingly, there was no fighting or scuffles, etc, etc.

However, I've noticed that for the last month or so, my older boy Scotch starts terrorizing the younger two randomly. I'm not sure why he's acting up, but he'll chase them around, herd them with his bum, and when he gets the chance pin them down (they scream like mad, almost as if he's biting them, but I've never been able to find any wounds).
This happens completely at random, I've found no pattern to the abrupt switch to bullying. Normally, Scotch will play with the little ones just find, and cuddle up to sleep with them regularly. But when he gets in that mood, the little ones are terrified. Two nights ago, they climbed out of the cage onto me, and would NOT go back home for a good twenty minutes. When they did go back home they hid under my other older boy Blue, who was sleeping peacefully during this entire episode.

Any ideas on what might be causing this? I finally got him to stop by making a great deal of noise with a plastic bag. I'm just worried that one day, he'll get in the bullying mood, and then cause one of the little ones a great deal of harm. I've considered separating them, but as the bullying happens so rarely I'm really hesitant to do so. They get along so well most of the time...
Could it be that, as the younger two are maturing, Scotch may be seeing them as a threat to his dominance and wants to show them who is boss?

 

[victoria]

How old is Scotch? Are they all neutered or intact?

 

[hsm]

They're all intact.
Scotch and Blue are around 13-14 months old.
The little ones, Bear and Star, are around 4-5 months old.

 

[victoria]

It could be that Scotch is getting to be hormonal. You can try giving him time outs when he bullies the young boys (I put the rat in an empty carrier for five minutes at a time and increase the time in there as needed) or dominating him, but he will probably need a neuter at some point.

 

[Rianca]

When he doesnt bite the younger ones till they bleed, i wouldnt worry to much about it.
I bet the 2 younger ones are getting older and they could try to get to a higher rank.
Im not sure how old the younger ones are but the younger ones are getting into
puberty between 6 and 9 months, so they could try him out and bug him before he
gets mad and chase them down.

Have you seen him doing it randomly, have you seen him really starting it?

 

[hopefloats]

Mine did that, I think the babies worked his nerves. They would be hyper and then the alpha would get them. I think it is more like a no, you crossed the line there. Babies tend to scream more, and some rats tend to make a lot of noise for no reason.

I just put my two girls that are fighting on a time out chair, never been before place, made them rely on each other only to cuddle since they didn't like the place. Haven't heard a peep out of them in an hour now.

 

[jorats]

The young ones are at the prime age, maturing and becoming bullies. Scotch is making sure that doesn't happen. This is all normal and part of a male colony.

 

[hsm]

Victoria: I really hope he isn't getting hormonal. I don't want to get him neutered. I might try the time-out thing if it continues. I've only noticed it happening 2-3 times, but who knows what happens when I'm asleep.

Rianca: I've never actually seen it start. Their cage is in my living room, so I just heard the scuffling start and turned around to see what was happening. I do know that the one time I DID see it start, I had the top level of my double CN blocked off to clean, and Scotch was trying to keep the young ones away from Blue. That was also the first time I noticed it. I thought then that it was because they had less space, but then it happened again. I kind of hope that it's just them figuring out the dominance issue, I don't want Scotch to turn aggressive.

Hopefloats: All my rats seem to be very vocal, they squeak incessantly when being groomed, so part of me thinks that the little ones are just huffy because they tried to start something and got put in their place.
Unfortunately, there aren't any spots in my house that the rats aren't accustomed to going aside from my brother's room. The room my mom and I share is their play room, they are all accustomed to the living room couch and recliner, and NONE of them have any qualms about jumping down onto the floor. The only thing I could think of would be to put them all in the tiny travel cage I have and putting it in the bathroom....Scotch doesn't like the bathroom after I gave him a bath. But that cage really isn't appropriate for more than one young rat to be in, and even that is iffy.

Jorats: Is it? I'm glad it's normal. I thought it might be, but I wanted to check with you guys and gets some input. I'll try not to worry unless Scotch starts drawing blood, then I might need to figure something else out. The first instance it happened, I took Scotch out and put him in the free range area, and then my mom yelled for me to come downstairs and told me the little ones had been harassing Blue. Maybe Scotch is just trying to protect his brother from their bullying.

 

[hsm]

Update: He's done this "bullying" behavior for the last three nights, and I've been observing everyone very carefully tonight. Scotch appears to be in some discomfort, he squeaks when he is cleaning his penis. I checked to see if I could find a plug to wipe away, but that's the first time I've looked for one and I'm not sure what I should be looking for. His walk is more "wobbly" that usual...
Could it be that he's in pain, and just does not want to put up with the little ones? From what I've been watching today, the little ones come up to him, and stiffen up, staring at him, and then nudge him a bit. After that, Scotch starts chasing them around for a bit, and doing the "bullying" behavior I was talking about earlier. He then looks for somewhere to be alone, and starts grooming his penis again. I noticed him grooming it last night after seeking a space alone as well, but tonight is the first time he was squeaking while doing so...

I don't know if that was the pattern the last two nights, because I only saw what was going on DURING the chasing/bullying. But that appears to be what's happening tonight.

 

[victoria]

There is a penis plug thread in the reference sub-forum (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=171) that goes through how to look for them and what to do. If it's not a penis plug the pain could be caused by an urinary tract infection (UTI) or something worse. Have you noticed if he's eating, drinking and peeing normally?

 

[Rianca]

The bullying could be out of pain indeed, but since he's bullying for over a month now, I personaly dont think its out of pain.
You should try to get a clean pee sample, bring it to the vet, and let it examinate.
If you wont be able to get a pee-sample, the vet is always able to get some pee out of him.
Could be UTI, like victoria said, do you give food without animal protein?

 

[jorats]

Could very well be a bladder infection. Penis plugs don't really hurt, they are a nuisance but I don't think they hurt.
And yes, the bullying could be related to the growing discomfort in his penis/urethra/bladder area.

 

[odduckOasis]

I've been noticing the same sorta behavior in my two boys. I have an older one that is probably somewhere at 8 months, and the younger is about 3 1/2 months. At first I thought the older one, Peanut, was just bullying the younger, Almond, but as I've been watching the interactions, I've noticed that Almond has been rather humping Peanut and whatever else that might be fighting for dominance (since it's just the two of them) and Peanut is putting him in his place (Usually by sidling him, pinning him with his back legs and even kicking at him). Any time things get a little too much tho, where Peanut's hair will raise and the squealing from Almond gets too much, I block off the two with something (like a box or something else) and just sorta separate them, then I'll pull Almond away from Peanut to allow the two to calm down. I don't bother separating them for too long, since it's normal rat behavior- for normally, they're fine. Just occasionally Almond will get a little pushy and irritate Peanut to a point that he has to tell the little boy to "knock it off". xD

It makes sense though that saying the younger ones make more noise, because sometimes Peanut will get pinned (or will allow Almond to pin him) and he doesn't squeak hardly at all, but Almond peeps all the time because Peanut still power grooms him and such (another one of those putting him in his place sorta things I guess. Almond is starting to sorta fight back which breaks out into more fighting).

I'm glad I'm not the only one having been concerned for the behavior, but there isn't any pain squeaking (when alone) I'm hearing at any point and no blood either when the 'bullying' is going on, but I figured it's really just Peanut putting Almond in his place. So, it's probably the same thing going on with yours.

I hope you can figure out what's going on with Scotch and that it can be resolved! Good luck with the ratlets! =3 And above all, patience. xD

 

[Ria]

When my rat had a penis plug I found he was excessively licking and grooming down below; but never any squeaking.

I agree about the UTI. Also I'd check to see if he is passing water properly, if you feel around his bladder area is bulging or squishy? If he's passing water it's a good sign, if he's not vets straight away, as the infection may be baad!

Good luck, and I hope he is better soon! / Also do you think he may also be establishing who is boss with the young-ins? Being an older rat he may feel a bit threatened, and it's his way of telling them "Im boss still" UTI could be a co-incidence. -EDIT- I just realised you basically said this in your first post. So I agree with that comment. :emb: