Possible PT or Ear Infection: Need Advice

[Steerpike]

Hello everyone!

A few weeks ago one of my ratties, Webster, became very sick very suddenly. She began rolling backward, couldn't walk properly or hold food and developed substantial porphyrin around her eyes. She would want to come out at playtime and drag herself around the room, but it didn't look anything like what I've seen in HED videos.
After some googling I realized she probably had PT, and asked a friend with considerable experience with rats about advice. She was extremely sick and I was concerned a vet trip would stress her out more and cause her more harm than good. My friend told me to make sure she was getting soft food and gave me an excellent recipe (lab blocks + water + baby food + olive oil) for feeding her, but confirmed that it sounded like she had PT and that a vet trip might not be the best idea under the circumstances.
For a week she really picked up and while she still had the major symptoms (inability to grasp things/occasional backward rolling), she was running around quite a lot, though with a bit of a funny gait and climbing things more easily, etc. She became very sick again the day before yesterday, keeping her eyes mostly closed and using objects around the cage/the cage itself to prop herself up and rolling around on her back.

Webster is quite a young rat, but I'm really not sure of her exact age, as she was adopted from some people on kijiji who didn't really know much or anything about rats (they thought she was a boy, haha!).

Recently, two of my older rats (Chloe and Lola, about 2yrs and four months old) have had trouble eating block/become lethargic and developed porphyrin around the eyes. Lola also sometimes rolls back while trying to clean her privates (although this may just be because it's a super-easy way to clean them). Lola and Chloe have always been extremely healthy.
I've made sure there is enough soft food in the cage for all of my rats now, but left out the olive oil, since I also have two very chubby rats who will otherwise eat it (I don't want to separate them as they are all good friends).

Chances are, Lola and Chloe are just getting old, but I just wanted to double-check that this was most likely PT in Webster, and not a possible ear infection that was spreading to the others.
I had a bit of a scare myself last summer when my hearing became extremely impaired/painful for a day and a night and have had often had strange...cloudiness in my ears that makes me wonder if I have an allergy or a possible infection. At the time, when I went to the doctor, he just gave me advil cold and sinus, but now I'm a bit (probably ridiculously) paranoid that I do have an ear infection and gave it to my ratties. ): Is it possible for rats and humans to catch ear infections from each other?

I'm taking another one of my rats, Dotty, to the vet tomorrow about a mammary tumour, and was wondering if I should bring along one of my older girls (Lola or Chloe) or possibly Webster (although she's so bad today I'd worry about transporting her). I'm hoping Webster will pick up again like she did last time (there was a couple of days when she first got sick that I thought she was on death's door, but then she perked up).

Anyway, sorry for the long message, and thanks so much for any help!

 

[SQ]

In my opinion, they all need to go to the vet asap.

For an inner ear infection:
- antibiotics are needed immediately - usually clorpalm, or else baytril + clavamox.
- an anti inflamatory is given to reduce swelling and prevent further permanent inner ear damanage ... usually predisone is given.

For PT
- predisone and an antibiotic such as baytril are given.
- some people have had good luck treating with bromo in addition to the other two meds. (viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28917&hilit=bromo&start=0)

All these meds are perscription drugs.

They would not have caught an inner ear infection from you.

 

[mamarat]

I agree with SQ. Would your vet give you a discount for bringing them all in? It's so hard when they seem to all be sick at the same time.

 

[Steerpike]

Thanks for the help! I'll bring them all in tomorrow when I take Dotty. Hopefully Dr. D won't feel like I'm overwhelming him with rats!
Fortunately, Webster seems to have picked up a bit again, but re-reading the articles I had previously looked at about PT has further cemented in my mind that that's probably what's wrong. ): At least an ear infection would have been curable. I'm also starting to worry if Chloe (and perhaps Lola as well) have very early symptoms of PT. They're about the right age, and when I gave Chloe a treat just now she held it to the floor in order to eat it (she did something similar the day before yesterday, just before she started to seem lethargic). Lola had gradually been becoming more and more lazy/lethargic, so I chalked it up to her ageing (which it still might be, in her case). Lola and Chloe are sisters though, so it wouldn't surprise me if they had the same thing.
At least, because I've been feeding Webster soft food, I know they've had access to food that's easier to eat (and I've watched them eat it/drink from the bottles and dishes). Apart from Chloe's lethargy yesterday and today, they've also been very happy, if slower than when they were younger. When they come out for playtime Chloe and Lola just cuddle on my lap and brux, which they seem to enjoy.

It's just so hard when your ratties all seem to be getting sick at the same time. ): Dotty's sister just had a mammary tumour removed a couple of months ago, and they'd both had tumours removed last year, so I expected her to get another and was watching her closely, but unlike the others it's grown very fast.

It's good to know that I couldn't have given them something myself though! Again, thanks for your advice. I've treated rats with baytril before, so have some experience with it, and read about predisone while looking up info on PT. I'll write down the names of the other drugs and take them with me.

 

[SQ]

Some people treat pt with Bromocriptine. If it works it treats the tumour, not just the symptoms.
Please see: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24452&hilit=bromo
and viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28917&hilit=bromo

As noted in Godmother's post, she starts treating with bromo by giving 1/4 of the dose and gradually increasing it.
It is more effective if given with predisone, and predisone must be given with an antibiotic as it lowers the immune system.

good luck to you and the ratties
I know how hard it is when so many are ill :hugs:

 

[Steerpike]

I've never taken more than one rat in to this vet (I used to live in Ontario), so I'm not sure. I have found that he is very good about other extra charges though. For instance, when Delilah had her tumour removed last year in Ontario, she chewed her stitches out twice. It was terrifying, as she'd only just had the operation, so I brought her in. The vet had to put her under again to stitch her back up and I was charged the cost of the full operation a second time, with a $50 discount. I actually had to watch her 24/7 to make sure she didn't chew them out again, but when I left the room for a second to use the bathroom she had them out and I'd run out of money (fortunately it was much later after the operation this time, and she was fine).
I warned my NL vet about her stubbornness when she had her second tumour out this year (he kind of laughed a bit and said it should be fine and that she shouldn't be too bad-- but he hadn't met Delilah!). When we picked her up he had to redo her stitches twice while she was at the office and ended up having to make her a ridiculous tube-harness that she couldn't move it (she was not pleased!). It was great help though, and I'm pretty sure all I paid was the cost of the operation, not additional stitchings.

Anyway, sorry about the long story! I just find Delilah and her antics very amusing. She's the strangest, baddest rat, but so charming.

 

[Steerpike]

Excellent! I'll read these now (I can't sleep now anyway, not worrying about Chloe on top of Webster and Dotty!).

One thing that is good is that throughout this whole ordeal, Webster has maintained her appetite very well, and eats her food/drinks water. She takes a long time doing it, but she gets it done!

 

[Steerpike]

I don't know if anyone's online this early, but Chloe seems fine this morning (as does Lola). She's obviously tired (she was stretching like her usual self when I took her out and yawned and then went to sleep in a hammock), but she's bright-eyed and had a bit of a snack on some of the soft food I put in the cage before going back to sleep.

Should I still bring her in?

Webster is still pretty bad this morning. She rolled around in her food after she'd eaten and is now in her little hut (her favourite safe place). I'll bring her in with Dotty. I suspect that if he thinks it's PT he'll recommend putting her to sleep. It's just so strange, because when she first got sick over the weekend she was soso sick and I thought she wouldn't make it through the night, and then the following week she was spry and alert and happy, and now suddenly she's gone downhill again (though not like she was the first time).

 

[victoria]

If it's PT, the Pred can really help alleviate the symptoms for some time. It's more likely to be effective if treatment is started earlier rather than later, but it may still be worth a try.

 

[Steerpike]

I hope so! She's so young, and she seemed so happy last week when she started to get better. It would be even better if it turned out to be an ear infection, but it seems unlikely.

 

[lilspaz68]

How old is she?

 

[Steerpike]

Unfortunately I'm not positive on her age (I adopted her from someone on kijiji last August). They really had no clue about rats and thought she was a boy and trained her to bite through the bars. ):
I would say she was half a year old at the youngest. She hasn't grown much from when I took her in and is a small rat. She's probably about a year and maybe a few months now.

 

[Steerpike]

She's definitely younger than my oldie girls though!

 

[lilspaz68]

That is very young for PT, and I would lean more to inner ear infection for her.

 

[Steerpike]

Oh I hope so! That would be wonderful, as I think if it was that she would make it through. She's been eating food, etc, so I know she's getting her nutrition, which seems to be the main factor in poor outcomes for ear infections.

Anyway, off to the vet with my four ratties!

 

[lilspaz68]

Good luck, let us know how you do

 

[mamarat]

Good luck at the vet!

 

[Steerpike]

Back now! There was both good news and bad news.

I brought all four ratties in. Lola is fine (although she had a slightly sharp tooth, so he gave her a trim). Webster does have PT, but he thought a lot of why she seemed as bad as she was was because of unrelated discomfort (surprise, they all have lice! ): ). I have Revolution for them and have treated them all with it as per his instructions. Webster also got a tooth trimming, as her teeth were very strange, apparently, and it was stopping her moving her jaw the whole way. She was given an injection of subcutaneous fluid and also some corn syrup. He said just to keep her comfortable and well-fed and seemed optimistic (although this confuses me a lot, since PT is always fatal. o.0 ).

Dotty's mammory tumour turned out to be a cyst, which she's having removed today (good news!). Because of where it was and how fast it had grown, I was worried it would be an inoperable tumour, so this is quite an uplifting outcome.

Unfortunately Dr. D found a mass in Chloe's abdomen (not visible to the naked eye). It's inoperable, and I've been told just to keep her comfortable and make sure she's getting food, etc. She may also have PT, but it's the mass in her abdomen that's causing her trouble at the moment. He said she would probably pass quietly, especially since she's old.

So, good news and bad, as well as some strange information.

While I was there I bought some nutri-cal to feed Webster and Chloe, and so far they love it. Webster's already perked up a bit, after dozing for a short time.

 

[Steerpike]

I've also made the decision to separate my healthy rats (Dingo and Delilah) from Lola, Chloe and Webster. It's difficult to feed the older/sick rats without Delilah stealing their food. ): I'm not happy about this, as they do love each other, but I'll be making sure they get lots of playtime together and maybe every once and a while I can put them in together and just take away the soft/calorie rich food. Once Dotty's stiches are healed I'll move her into the cage with Delilah and Dingo.


EDIT: I've opted not to separate them after all. I've had some good advice about keeping the cage safe/interesting and monitoring food intake, so they'll all be together. I'm quite pleased, as I didn't want them to miss each other.