persistent URI/heart - vet today - need input

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temblabamomo

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
5,048
Location
Southeastern Virginia
Bear has an appointment this evening with a vet I've never used before. Long story short, my vet keeps rejecting the idea that he could have a heart problem. I was ready to go back to him and work to figure out what's going on with Bear, but he can't see us until next week.

History: June 1 Bear had some sort of respiratory attack, he was cool as a cucumber one minute, I tried to pick him up and he panicked and began gasping for air. His nailbeds looked a touch cyanotic to me. He calmed down, but we saw the vet the next day. He was 530 g. His lungs sounded okay, a tad on the harsh side, so Dr. P put him on enro (.1cc at 50mg/ml twice daily) and doxy (.1cc at 25mg/ml twice daily).

At this point, I thought for sure we should be looking at a heart problem, since he'd had no signs up URI, and his lungs sounded pretty good to the vet, just a touch harsh. I didn't think a touch of harshness should cause an attack like the one he had.

He did not get better, but didn't get worse until June 30th, when he began breathing heavily from his sides. Dr. P said his lungs were much worse. Started him on azithromycin (.4cc at 40mg/ml ONCE daily). Dr. P did not want to give it in conjunction with any other drug, since he didn't know interactions. At the time, I could not remember if it was best in combo with doxy, or enro. After 5 days, he was worse, having minor panic attacks. Not in distress, just very uncomfortable. I upped the zithro to twice daily and added enrofloxacin. The panic attacks seemed to stop.

He has stayed on these meds since 6/30, and there has been no change. I am going to run out of meds soon, and the vet said they could not refill them until Bear had his recheck. Yet they can't see me until next week, unless I do a same day walk in appointment and pay an extra fee to see some vet other than Dr. P, who will likely tell me to come back when Dr. P is available. I adore Dr. P in many ways, but his clinic makes me crazy sometimes :wallbang:

We were also supposed to start nebulized amikacin on 6/30, but Bear became so frantic and stressed by the nebulizer that we have stopped doing it, he is much worse after a treatment than before.

I don't know what to do. I would like to try this new vet and hope they'll be more open to my suggestions, but I find myself at the point where I no longer know what to suggest. I was certain we were looking at a heart problem, but Dr. P said the heart sounds okay, and the lung sounds are more dry than wet, so he doubts it the heart. I don't even know what to ask this new vet this evening, I think I mostly made the appointment out of frustration with my vet, and the feeling that I need to do something besides just sit back and watch Bear fade away. Does anyone have any suggestions? Should we still be attempting to diagnose CHF despite Dr. P's theory?

Sorry for the long post. Just didn't want to leave any details out.
 
I am going through this with cobweb. I fought it with everything i had thinking it was pneumonia. No change. We went through baytril doxy and zithro doxy with a neb med as well. Finally monday 3 weeks after it started, or two rather maybe. I had my vet listen. You cant hear alot of lung noise, that is improving. We are on enalapril and vetmedin which is a combo they use to fight Congested heart failure. I added lasix today to try and help remove the fluid that is building up. I am thinking he never had pneumonia since I never heard him sneeze. I am assuming he has a build up of fluid causing these issues.

I would ask for enalapril, lasix and the other heart meds they use here. I am the one one that i know that uses vetmedin but so far, I have seen some results. Some boys are still with me months later and isis got a month of life when she should not have. She began gasping.

This is cobby today the beginning he has the hiccups so he looks worse than he is.
[BBvideo 450,375:2i7pmtf4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYJGfQrLVa0[/BBvideo:2i7pmtf4]
 
I've hardly ever dealt with a heart issue so I can't help there but I do have lots of experience with pulmonary abscesses which can be what you are describing. In which case, pred can help and keep him on meds like a maintenance of Baytril forever.
 
jorats said:
I've hardly ever dealt with a heart issue so I can't help there but I do have lots of experience with pulmonary abscesses which can be what you are describing. In which case, pred can help and keep him on meds like a maintenance of Baytril forever.

Another dead end with my vet, as they won't give steroids :gaah:

This new vet called awhile ago, apparently had a chance to review my entire message thru the receptionist, and called to let me know he didn't think he could do anything, his rodent experience isn't broad enough. I appreciate that they were willing to hear me out and consider whether it's worth the time/money, unlike other vets who just say they can't tell you until you've seen the animal.

Guess I have that much more time to rehearse how I'm going to beg Dr. P to try some of these things, like pred...
 
Unfortunately, I have had a great deal of experiene with heart problems.

Try giving enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day). This is safe to use in order to test dose for a heart problem.
If it helps then atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day) and lasix (as needed, usually starting as 1 to 2 mg/Ib twice a day) are added. Antibiotics may also be needed
Digoxin (0.0025 mg/Ib twice a day) is added if Bear has an enlarged heart on as seen on an xray.
 
One of my rats, Lily, had chronic respiratory problems, but stopped responding to the antibiotics. She didn't sound bad, but you could see her breathing and she was starting to get a bit panicky. As a last resort before euthanasia, we tried her on Prednisone. She did very well and she was with me for many more months. When people have lung problems, steriod therapy is very common. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to be used in rats for that purpose.
 
Took Bear in yesterday. He had a bad attack Friday evening and we just couldn't wait til his Tues. appt. Got lukcy and Dr. F was on call. We talked about my heart suspicions, so we did x-rays. He was ablt to get 2 shots w/o sedating Bear. He thinks the heart looks okay and he does not see signs of CHF (not sure what signs show up, so who am I to argue?) The lungs did not look great. Saw no apparent abscesses but you can definitely see buildup of ickyness around the bronchioles. He will share the xrays w Dr. P when he is in just to see if they're in agreement about the heart. He wants to continue treating for infection. They want to do vibramycin injectables once a week, I am not a fan but they've been having some nice results with them, and I don't know what else to suggest. Also doing oral marbofloxacin and theophylline.

The theo seems to be helping, Bear has actually be eating and snuggling Morrissey again. He isn't staring vacantly into space, but actually closing his eyes and sleeping a bit. So he does seem more comfortable at least. Fingers crossed.

On another note, Dr. F., who owns the clinic, got wind of some of my pen and ink work and asked me to bring in some rat prints. I work with the husband of another vet there, and she told him. He decorates the clinic with animal art and had no rat pieces. He said he would pay, but I'd settle for a major discount on my next visit.
 
temblabamomo said:
On another note, Dr. F., who owns the clinic, got wind of some of my pen and ink work and asked me to bring in some rat prints. I work with the husband of another vet there, and she told him. He decorates the clinic with animal art and had no rat pieces. He said he would pay, but I'd settle for a major discount on my next visit.
Sounds like a win-win situation!

I'm glad to hear Bear is feeling a bit better. I hope you can find the magic combination for him...
 
temblabamomo said:
Took Bear in yesterday. He had a bad attack Friday evening and we just couldn't wait til his Tues. appt. Got lukcy and Dr. F was on call. We talked about my heart suspicions, so we did x-rays. He was ablt to get 2 shots w/o sedating Bear. He thinks the heart looks okay and he does not see signs of CHF (not sure what signs show up, so who am I to argue?)

Many heart problems do not cause the heart to become enlarged and can not be seen on an xray.
An xray will not tell you that there isn't a heart problem.

That is why you test dose to see if enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day) will help.
If it helps, then you know there is heart problem (unless the rattie has another health problem heart meds will help).
If the enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day) helps, atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day) and lasix (as needed, usually starting as 1 to 2 mg/Ib twice a day) are added.

If an xray shows an enlarged heart then digixon is added.
If the heart is not enlarged, the ratties is kept on the other 3 previously mentioned heart meds for the remainder of their life.
Xrays may be repeated later to see if the heart has enlarged.

If there is a heart problem, rats can still have other health issues too ....
 
I have explained all of that to both docs, on many occassions. I am baffled at their reluctance to try test dosing. Their attitude regarding things like this is a small factor in my decision not to have anymore rats until I live near a vet who doesn't think they know it all. Thought with time we could build a rapport and they'd consider things like this. I'm tired of losing little ones and having that terrible feeling that more could possibly have been done if only we had a great rat vet.

Bear passed a little while ago. I'm heartbroken to think the only reason he couldn't be helped was a vet who thinks he knows it all. Maybe I didn't argue hard enough, but he claimed if there was a problem he would see it on xray, and he refused to try heart meds "just in case". Just heartbroken.
 
I am so very sorry Morgan...its frustrating and heart breaking to KNOW what your rat needs to try and a vet basically cuts you off at the knees. You tried for your Bear ((hugs))
 

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