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Amaginon

Active Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
36
Location
Brisbane
Hello,
So I finally got two new rats to be companions to my two existing rats this afternoon. My oldest, Phoenix, is not too bothered by them, but my youngest, King Jack (about 10-11 months old), is really wanting to fight them. The two new boys are between 6-8 months apparently, but King Jack is almost twice the size of the oldest newbie, Sweeney (So is Phoenix actually, and I wonder if it is because my old rats are only locked in a cage on rare occasions).

Anyway, King Jack really want to have a go at them, he is all puffed up and is constantly slinking around and over the cage, and is even sleeping next to it. Because he is free range and has full access to my (small) apartment, I have no neutral ground to allow them to interact. He is even trying to nip them on their backside through the cage bars (and sometimes when this happens, one of the newbies thinks his cagemate did it and it causes a fight to break out between them).

Despite me having had rats for many years, this is only my third introduction (most of previous rats were from the same family). My first introduction went badly (Phoenix was gotten as a companion to the last member of my original family, and poor Phoenix was traumatised and lost the end of his tail. The next introduction was King Jack and his brother to Phoenix and that went great (mainly because Phoenix just ignored them, and King Jack and his brother were still pretty young). I do not want to have to keep the newbies in the cage all the time ( they are very friendly and comfortable with me or Phoenix).

Would King Jack get used to and more accepting of them just by having the cage where he can climb all over it fine, or should I put it up on a table where he can not get to?

(I am sorry I get wordy, but I just often feel I have to explain things first)
 
Is King Jack neutered? That might help with all of the hormonal territorial-ness. Also, if you lack neutral ground, maybe the empty bath or the shower would be a good place? I don't know if he has access to those places too.
 
I do not have have a bath, but and he has been in the shower a few times but I do not know if he considers it his territory. But I will try it
I am wary of automatically neutering just because of a behavourial issue. I know this site likes to promote neutering as an answer to every little issue (which reminds me in a way of people diagnosing every kid who is not perfectly behaved with ADHD), but King Jack's personality with me or Phoenix is fantastic. I am not against neutering in special circumstances, but I do not like it as just an answer to everything. (And I am not judging anyone who uses neutering for behavioral management, it is just not for me).

I do wonder if him having the cage where he can clamber over it helps him get used to them or increases his tension because he can't get to them.
 
the addition of the 2 new adult males might set off your boy..be prepared for his behaviour to possibly (but hopefully not!) change with you and his cagemate as his hormones ramp up.

He may never be able to have friends other than his current cagemate if he continues to act like this. Be prepared to have 2 groups.
 
Allowing your new rats to be terrorized by the bully is really not a good idea. Removing the cage from King Jack's access is a good idea. It may help King Jack or it may make him even worse but at this point, you need to protect the new rats. You could try a table top intro. Have all four on the table top and do not allow King Jack to go and bully them. Be at the ready to interfere or stop any interactions at this point. You want King Jack to just be on the table with them without going after them. So it may be a very short intro session. You might even try Phoenix with the newbies first to see how that goes so that you know that you won't have to worry about Phoenix during the intro with King Jack.
Also, be careful, like lilspaz has mentioned, King Jack may very well turn on you and start biting you hard.
Also, there is a chance that King Jack is acting this way because he hasn't been able to physically meet the new boys. He may not be an aggressive rat, at the ready to bite. So lets give him a chance with a quick meeting, without allowing him to touch them. You may even try one on one for this.

Neutering is our first line of defence against a highly stressed out boy. Surgery is a risk but vets are becoming more and more skilled with better meds out there to reduce that risk. A lot of people don't have the skills or time to put in to aggressively counter condition with positive reinforcement a rat that is completely out of control due to his hormones. A rat in this state can even turn on their humans and become a huge burden on the average pet owner. So yes, we push neuters because it works every time, like a charm. The fierce bully becomes the sweetheart he always was once again. The neutered rat if once was the alpha for lack of a better word, still remains alpha, it doesn't turn any rat into a puny scared little minion. All it does is help him cope better with life. My neutered rats can still perform on my females, they simply shoot blanks. So there's no removing of any maleness, you simply make him calmer and safe.
Myself and lilspaz have had rats for over a decade, I've had over 300 myself and lispaz way more than that. We deal with rescues and have seen all kinds of stuff and still to this day, neutering works great and fast. People want the easy fixes. Rarely do we see someone ask us for long term methods for socializing or counter conditioning.
 
Hi,
Ok, first thank you for your advice.
So far King Jack is still fantastic with me and Phoenix, Still he likes to be petted and likes to lick my fingers/hand as I am doing so. Even when he is his most agitated about the new rats and really fluffed up, I can still pick him up from behind, startling him, without him trying to bite me. Like I said I understand neutering for health, birth control or even to counter extreme aggression reasons, I just do not believe it is warranted just because he has not warmed to intruders. And I know it effects personality but I love King Jacks personality and do not want him to change. (I am a dog person, I got rats originally because I could not have a dog in my apartment, but I love how rats are more like dogs and cats, than mice, with huge distinct personalities.)

I tried the introducing King Jack and biggest newbie (Sweeney) in the shower (King Jack does not like the shower) and while not the best outcome (one scuffle) it did not go too bad as King Jack mostly ignored Sweeney (though if King Jack went near Sweeney he would move away), and if he got too close I would just put my hand in the way. So I might just continue with this.

I think terrorising the newbies when they are in their cage has become a habit for him. He gets up in the morning he has to go check out their cage. They have lots of bite barks on their tails from when they accidentally let their tails hand out of the cage). I have had to move the cage, so he can no longer circle it and get them on all sides, though his attempts to get them seemed to have mellowed, (he seems to be more after making them squeak in fear than bite them). I am wondering if maybe I should shut him up at night in his own cage (his cage is usually always left open), and then let the newbies roam my apartment so their scent is allowed to become part of the domain instead of just concentrated around their cage, Does that make sense? At the moment their cage is near my computer and when I am on my computer their top cage door is left open so they are free to climb out and around my computer and on me. They are very friendly and socialised.

Phoenix has no issues with the newbies for the most part, though sometimes Sweeney get's exited and tries to hump Phoenix which he ignores most times, but occasionally he will turn around and face off with his death stare, but never trying to bite or wrestle. He has even slept in the cage with them with no issues (except he does not like being locked in a cage).
 
Hi,
I think terrorising the newbies when they are in their cage has become a habit for him. He gets up in the morning he has to go check out their cage. They have lots of bite barks on their tails from when they accidentally let their tails hand out of the cage). I have had to move the cage, so he can no longer circle it and get them on all sides, though his attempts to get them seemed to have mellowed, (he seems to be more after making them squeak in fear than bite them). I am wondering if maybe I should shut him up at night in his own cage (his cage is usually always left open), and then let the newbies roam my apartment so their scent is allowed to become part of the domain instead of just concentrated around their cage, Does that make sense? At the moment their cage is near my computer and when I am on my computer their top cage door is left open so they are free to climb out and around my computer and on me. They are very friendly and socialised.

Yes, totally, keep doing that.

Sounds like it's going very good.
 
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