Neuro-symptoms AND heart issue? RIP sweet girl

[crumbilina]

Hi all

Trixie is my 26ish month old girl who has had a constant URI for a few weeks now and has not responded to antibiotics. When she was at the vet last week we noticed that her heart beat was strange, almost like it skipped a beat every few times. We decided that the lung issue may be due to a heart issue and have started her on lasix (dosage is correct, I double checked) to try and clear out her lungs and then will look at heart medication once her lungs are clear. So far, the lasix has improved her breathing. She IS doing better then what she had been doing. She used to basically drag her back end around - wouldn't really stand to walk, didn't eat a whole lot, wasn't grooming, was really loud when she breathed. Now she is grooming (at least her front paws and a bit of her belly when she can), walking on all 4's, eating when I offer it in a syringe, and just making less angry breathing noises then what she had been making. She is breathing a bit hard now, but she was walking around a lot which might have caused that.

But, I have noticed a few things that I can't tell if they are related to just not getting enough air into her lungs or something else. When she eats from a bowl she will constantly drag her chin on the blankets. Its the same kind of thing that others can do when they have residual medicine around their mouth and want to wipe it off, except this is frequent and lasts quite some time (like 4-5 minutes after eating and even when she had not been eating). Another thing is if I touch her left side she will compulsively bend to the side and groom. That is ANY time that I touch (rub, scratch, brush) that side. She DID fail the cheerio test, but I suspect that could have been from weakness because if I leave her with the cheerio so always grabs it again and will begin to eat it and finish it, with no paw clubbing. She seems confused, but her sister was just pts, so she might be depressed and she must be tired from breathing. So I think that may be a result of how she is feeling.

I dont *think* that it is a PT because she did have Dex injection before and it didn't change anything, but she just may not have responded too.

When I talked to the vet, I had no idea what I was dealing with. Usually he goes with what I tell him I think it is and just confirms my suspicions, but this time I had no idea so he was just going on the symptoms that i told him. He thought that it was just a heart issue due to the strange heart beat, but I'm starting to think it might be more then that. Does anyone have any experience with untreated heart issues and the types of symptoms that can be caused by that? Does anyone have any recommendations/input?

I finally got her to take ALL of her meds this morning (thanks to those in chat who provided me with ideas about what to mix it with after I had tried everything I could think of). And she took 2mL of baby cereal/ensure from the syringe this morning so thats good too, definitely an improvement. I think she will take more in a few minutes, I'll make sure that I keep offering it to her.

She does have an inguinal tumour developing as well, but I don't think that is effecting anything but the way she might be walking. This too may be why she was more dragging herself then anything else before. But as I said, she would drag herself earlier, and now she stands on all 4's.

I'm really not sure that I am doing the right thing by trying to treat her. She just might not have the will left no matter how much I try and fight with her to beat this. Whenever I am home, she is on the couch with me. She seems happy when she is with me, and she will eat and drink, but when she is in her cage, all that seems to stop (well, except drinking, she is still drinking her water by herself thank goodness!!!). She is still hydrated (skin springs back nicely).

I just can't shake that feeling that there is more wrong here then what we (the vet and I) thought on Wednesday.

 

[Aida]

I don't know what to say, except that I hope your baby gets better soon. It is great that you're seeing improvement, so get some positive energy off of that thought- they an feeeeeel it! And keep her with you outside of the cage as much as you can; that place must be awful lonely without her BFF to help her through this. ):

 

[Joanne]

Boy, that sounds like a tough one to figure out. I did have one rat, Taffy, that had odd neurological symptoms that came and went for several months. I always suspected strokes. Especially when things become one-sided.
But, maybe this has to do with her tumor. Perhaps she has another tumor undiagnosed, and it is more uncomfortable on one side. The face rubbing does sound odd though.
It's not impossible to have more than one thing going on at the same time. Perhaps the heart issues have decreased the blood flow to the brain, affecting her cognitive processes.
I'm sorry I can't really be of help. I hope you find out what is affecting her.

 

[SQ]

If she has a heart problem, you and your vet should discuss giving her benazepril and if that helps adding atenolol.
The lasix just reduces the amount of fluid building up in her lungs.

 

[jorats]

What you are describing, I've seen my PT rats do that. Rubbing the chin and turning to groom when touching the side. It does sound neurological.

 

[crumbilina]

SQ: the plan is to put her on some heart meds next week. I will mention those to my vet, thank you!

I was worried about PT. *sigh*
Unfortunately since I wrote this post things have not been good. She has gone downhill and is now breathing heavily, gasping at times. It truly is horrifying.
I don't know what to do. I cancelled my plans for today (well, my boyfriend went - its his lab party, who cares if I go... altho I'm sure ill hear it when I go to pick him up) so that I could be home with her. The b/f had to go to dollarama and get some gift stuff and I saw little nylon tents. Grabbed one for her while she is out on the couch with me. She is happy in it right now No gasping now *sigh of relief*

I guess my inability to shake the feeling that something else is wrong is correct. blah.

At least she is content and happy when I'm home with her on the couch. It is worth the nagging/consequences just to be with her and see her happier :heart: even if she isn't at her best... or even close to her best.

 

[Petunia]

:hugs:
hoping that she holds on til you can get her to the vet
so hard to see them like this

I agree with Jo, Paige did similar things and she had (most likely) a PT or something similar.

so sorry for you and your girl!

 

[jorats]

PT can also make it look like there's a severe URI going on. It's crazy all the symptoms it can have.
Keep her warm and hydrated is the best you can do. Give her a kiss for me.
edited to add: if you have metacam, I'd go ahead and give her some.

 

[crumbilina]

She is on lasix tho, there is a drug interaction between the 2 (lasix and metacam) - I checked

I have a bunch, I'm just not sure that it is safe to give...

 

[Petunia]

what about ibuprofen?

from what Jenny said in chat I don't think she's in pain, just having trouble breathing........... not sure though

 

[crumbilina]

Unfortunately the issue with metacam is that it can interact with NSAIDs and ibuprofen is also an NSAID.

She is mostly having trouble breathing and doesn't seem to be in any pain as Petunia said. Her extremities are also pink so she seems to be getting sufficient oxygen to her extremities.
Ugh, I'm so confused. If she was having a hard time getting air in, then why is she not showing signs of inadequate blood flow? And why does she sound so horrible? And gasping? None of this is making sense to me.

 

[Petunia]

Unfortunately the issue with metacam is that it can interact with NSAIDs and ibuprofen is also an NSAID.

She is mostly having trouble breathing and doesn't seem to be in any pain as Petunia said. Her extremities are also pink so she seems to be getting sufficient oxygen to her extremities.
Ugh, I'm so confused. If she was having a hard time getting air in, then why is she not showing signs of inadequate blood flow? And why does she sound so horrible? And gasping? None of this is making sense to me.

Jenny, Paige seemed to be ok when I kept her confined, what convinced me that she was in as bad shape as the vet was telling me, was this:
I put her on the floor in the rat room to let her run around. She could barely make it from the middle of the room to the one end of it without her feet and tail getting cold. that's about er, 6-7 feet, I guess?
the more she tried to run about, the colder her feet and tail got. she didnt' pant and all like the CHF rat I took care of one time, she just got cold feet. No big color change, either, that I can recall now.

But the temp change was obvious. I could have probably gone a few more days to a week but then we would have run into the weekend, like your situation, so I opted to bring her in the next day.

I'm praying it's the same for your girl, and she can hold off and still be comfortable til you can get her in to the vet

if she's wanting to just sleep and eat and be held or wrapped up in fleece or whatever she wants, then I'd say just spend as much time as you can with her.
Paige had no signs of pain either and the vet said she probably didnt' have any
I did however have her on pred

you can finger feed her so she saves her energy
most rats who can still feed themselves just fine ,enjoy this extra codding. I know all my healthy young uns would prefer to be fed this way, the spoiled bRats LOL

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

so sorry you're going thru this

 

[crumbilina]

Thanks Althea, it just haunts me because I have no idea what's going on... fear of the unknown here...

I'm convinced she had a PT. There is very little doubt left in my mind. As the day has gone on she has developed (or I have seen and she just hid them from me) numerous symptoms come out. Head bumping, how she walks, her paws are clubbing now... the list goes on.

I was also reading that PTs can cause an irregular heart beat too, which she has/had (dunno if it is still there). Wish I had of known that last week *sigh*

So for now, we will just enjoy our time, as best as we can. And then see what Monday will bring. Ick, what a week!

Oh, and she just had a bunch of baby food At least it is something... she ate 2x today. Better then yesterday, I had to force food on her, and that was only 1x.

 

[Godmother]

So sorry to hear what you are going through. PT can be so miserable and so confusing. I think that it can also lead to breathing problems, depending on how big the tumour gets and whether it is bleeding. Hope that your sweetie can have a comfortable weekend with you.

 

[jorats]

When I had a postmortem done on my Felix, his lungs were clear and beautiful. He died of a PT. But, at home, before I rushed him in to be put to sleep, he was gasping. This was a progression from a few weeks started with what I thought was a mild URI and it just got worse. But the postmortem showed healthy lungs. It was the PT all along.
If you feel she's doing ok, then don't fret over the metacam. All that matters is her comfort.

 

[Petunia]

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

went thru something very similar with Paige, I told the vet I was confused. she told me her lungs sounded really bad, although she had no outward signs of breathing trouble at all. but she could not hold her head up and looked so tired.
the vet who helped her over to the bridge (a different vet) said her heart rate was crazy fast, too.
???

glad she's eating for you!
that's always a good sign that they've got some fight left.

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

rough week, so very sorry!!!!

 

[crumbilina]

So sorry to hear what you are going through. PT can be so miserable and so confusing. I think that it can also lead to breathing problems, depending on how big the tumour gets and whether it is bleeding. Hope that your sweetie can have a comfortable weekend with you.

This one was so confusing.
I had thought PT initially but...
I guess I really need to listen to my gut instinct more often. No matter how many times I say this, I still never do.

She is sleeping, what looks like content, now. I guess a full belly helps. I just hate forcing food, especially with her respiratory issue. I always fear she will aspirate it complicating her breathing issue more. She willingly ate this so I guess I'll just have to make sure I have lots and a variety of baby food on hand.

 

[crumbilina]

So,
I scrapped the lasix because it isn't doing anything except make her pee, and she isn't drinking. I'm trying to get a small dose into her because I know that lasix is something that you need to taper off rather then stop cold turkey so I'm trying but not forcing. I don't think it matters a whole lot anyway, considering...

I gave her metacam because she was panicky, open mouth breathing and she needed something to slow her panic down. I had to force it, which made things worse for a short while... but we made it through and now she is breathing lighter and is resting... thank goodness!

I'll be taking her in tomorrow in the morning. They open at 7:30 so I will call right away and see if they can squeeze me in... *sigh* Its an hour drive there in normal traffic, but it will be rush hour so it'll be longer (woot!) and then back to work. I REALLY wish that they kept their hours and stayed open on Sundays... but for them it wasn't worth it and I can understand that. But I also wish I had an emergency clinic I could go to... We will just have to manage until tomorrow.

She is ok for now... My goodness! I'm tired.

 

[SQ]

I don't think you need to worry about tapering off lasix.
But if she is on it, she needs to be taking in a fluid so she does not get dehydrated.

Hope she is comfortable until you see the vet.

 

[crumbilina]

I don't think you need to worry about tapering off lasix.
But if she is on it, she needs to be taking in a fluid so she does not get dehydrated.

Hope she is comfortable until you see the vet.

I'm carefully watching for dehydration. She isn't taking in anything except carrot and potato baby food. I'm hoping she will eat what is in her bowl so she can get fluids. She is still ok for hydration at this point though.