Need some help with a mood swing girl

[lindsayfawn]

If you guys can help me figure out what the deal is with this girl my fingers will thank you. I've gotten bitten from this foster quite a bit lately and last night was the worse full on aggressive attack. So I need some help.

Alice is I think is between 7-9 months of age. She was surrendered with her sister Bella who is sweet as can be and quite social. Alice however is a little crazy. From what the lady said who surrendered them she said that she didn't get to handle Alice much because she was so shy. So this could just be a kind of fear aggression but I dunno.

The first day or so she was fine then when I put my hand in the bars of the cage she bit me and tried to take my finger with her. Much like Channel did when we first rescued her. So I did the usual squeak and she let go.

We do not feed through the bars of the cage or administer meds through the bars through the cages to fosters where we don't know them and don't want to get them in the habit of biting fingers through the bars.

So next few days go on and she is sweet as pie, climbing on the bars wanting attention and will do fine to take a few pats in but will kinda rush off. She wants the attention but she doesn't really want to be touched but she does lol if that makes sense.


So a few days ago I was tiding up the cage and she would come over and kinda attack my hand as if to say. This is my cage get the heck out. I would again do the squeak noise which would make her stop.

Another day or so goes by and no biting then last night I was saying goodnight to them. She was climbing on top of the cage and I pet her and put her back in. She was fine then she climbed out again as I was getting the other girls in.
I put my hand in front of her and called her name to come over to me. Well she came over to me alright. In full fledge attack mode. She literally lunged at me and got one finger and retreated then came back and go my middle finger and did a really good number on that one. Of course I did the squeak and even then it took her a while to let go.

I feel kinda lost at this point on what to do with her. Can females get as hormonal as males? Would a spay calm her down? Or do you think she’s just has an extreme case of fear aggression?
It just feels like she has mood swings. She’s fine one day and the next she’s trying to have your finger for lunch.

Any idea’s, help, suggestions on what I can try? Would more one on one work in this case?
Just have a weird feeling about this one for some reason.

 

[Rachael]

Maybe you just can't handle her. I've had some that will love rattie company, and enjoy getting stroked... just not handled. I know of a few people that just work out a routine with their rats. My friend has a girl very like yours, she opens the door for playtime, then bribes her into a box, and carries that home, talking to her and stroking her while in the box.

 

[Dahlas]

I am not sure. It sounds like fear aggression to me......maybe with a bit of cage/territory aggression to me. I think squeaking is fine for babies or kids that are just to rough but this girl might be taking that as you are submissive and it is making her worse. Just a thought. As for a spay it MIGHT help can't hurt taking away the hormones but usually spays don't have as much affect on thing s like that as a neuter will....
Smelling all the other rats could be making her worse as well.....How do they seem to affect her? Smelling them from the cage etc....
Hopefully Jorats will have some ideas.....

 

[jorats]

She's a nasty one. How is she with her cage buddies?

climbing on the bars wanting attention and will do fine to take a few pats in but will kinda rush off. She wants the attention but she doesn't really want to be touched but she does lol if that makes sense.

She was probably in heat.


If you had money to throw around, then I'd say try a spay but it's definitely no guarantee so I don't recommend it.
If she's good with her cage buddies, then I'd say lots and lots of one on one. She's just not liking the humans or human smells. She needs to visit you down your shirt and leave her there for an hour or so, do this several times. At any given time, go into the cage firmly grasp her under her arms over her body and yank her out and stick her on your shoulder, keep her there for about 20 minutes, put back her back in and repeat a couple of hours later. If she bites when you go into the cage to yank her out, then let her climb out or get a towel and gently place it over her.

 

[lindsayfawn]

She's a nasty one. How is she with her cage buddies?

climbing on the bars wanting attention and will do fine to take a few pats in but will kinda rush off. She wants the attention but she doesn't really want to be touched but she does lol if that makes sense.

She was probably in heat.


If you had money to throw around, then I'd say try a spay but it's definitely no guarantee so I don't recommend it.
If she's good with her cage buddies, then I'd say lots and lots of one on one. She's just not liking the humans or human smells. She needs to visit you down your shirt and leave her there for an hour or so, do this several times. At any given time, go into the cage firmly grasp her under her arms over her body and yank her out and stick her on your shoulder, keep her there for about 20 minutes, put back her back in and repeat a couple of hours later. If she bites when you go into the cage to yank her out, then let her climb out or get a towel and gently place it over her.

She's very dominant with her cage buddies. Channel and coco will kinda ignore her but Alice will go and sleep with the anyways and is a little rough at times. I also forgot to note that when I had touched chaos (unaltered boy) and then went to touch her she bite me. So I'm not sure if that's because I had the smell of another rat on me. But other times she'd bite and I hadn't touched anyone else.


I'll keep trying the one on one and see if that helps. I want to deal with this before she goes to her foster home so they don't have to worry about getting bitten and it especially needs dealt with before she can be adopted.

 

[Dahlas]

I would say until this is fixed she should only go to an experienced foster home and that at this point she is NOT adoptable.

 

[jorats]

I agree with Dahlas. Also, it's going to take a long time. You might get her to love you and trust you but then a new person would have to put in as much work as you to gain her trust. Something happened to her and her stress level is through the roof. You'll have to work your magic on her Linds. Gather that calm, assertive energy when you handle her so she can sense from you that all is good.

As for the cagemates, so long as she's not making any holes in them, leave that be.

 

[lindsayfawn]

So she would be best suited for an experienced rat owner then eh? I'll have to put that on their petfinder add and on the website. It's to bad 'cause that will kinda deter people from wanting to adopt her, unless we find one of those special people that want to deal with a moody unsure girl.

I'm glad I was able to turn Channel around she doesn't bite at all now and will give kisses! I'm quite impressed with that. Her sister is so shy though she's so hard to catch lol So we need to work on that.

Alice's sister Bella is very outgoing and just loves life it's to bad she couldn't learn from her. I'm wondering if Ang and I both have the one on one time with her if it will help her get used to different people and make it easier for the transition for her when she's adopted?

 

[Dahlas]

You want to be careful when adopting "temperamental" rats. It is bad enough when they bite. It hurts like hell and a rescues reputation is built on word of month. You don't want people to start saying your rescues adopts out nasty critters. Plus it can turn off people off rats instead of making them love them more......

The shelter I work at USED to have the reputation of adoption out dangerous dogs....No one wanted to go and even look because people started to assume they would all be nasty and crazy. With LOTS of hard work we now have a good reputation of having great dogs. We spend LOTS of time with them, training them and placing the right dog with the right person.....and we don't adopt out aggressive dogs. If they can't be worked through their aggression then they are euthanized.

I know an aggressive dog is a lot different then an aggressive rat.

 

[SQ]

I agree with what Jorats and Dallas have said.

However, I would recommend a spay. A spay does not have the huge effect on girls that a neuter has on boys but it may help a bit.
It may also cause her to be less "moody" by keeping those hormone levels more balanced. A spay may make her have less of a reaction when the other girls go into heat.

It sounds like she is cage aggressive and learned to bite through the bars before you got her.
Some rats are never able to get over it and are always cage aggressive, never like to be picked up and will always bite when you least expected it.
Ask godmother about Edith (I :heart: Edith and miss her).
Other rats can be turned around with time, love and a lot of hard work.

Taking precautions around her and working on socialization (rat down the shirt, etc.) as already mentioned are the only way to go.
The smell of all the other unfamiliar rats is likely making things worse and you need to be careful about having their sent on you when you interact with her.
She is not adoptable and as Dallas said, can not be listed for adoption until she has a complete turn around unless you want to get a bad rep.
If you put her into a foster home, she needs to go into one that is experienced in socializing aggressive rats.

btw, she sounds like a lovely girl to me :heart:

 

[lindsayfawn]

Alrighty I'll take her and Bella off the list till we can do something about this aggression. She is a nice girl minus her trying to take my fingers for trophies lol

We for sure don't want to adopt out an aggressive rat. I'd never do that. Rats already have a bad enough rep. I was just thinking how some experienced rat owners may want to take on a special case to work with her. But most doubtful to find that around here.

 

[mamarat]

I had a couple of nippers and the spay helped a lot. But they were not cage aggressive though.

 

[Moon]

Spaying for aggression issues is a tricky situation, because females deal differently with hormones than males and a spay wont often be the huge behaviour changing experience that it is for males.

That said, an imbalance could be helped by a spay. Something interesting I learned at a seminar, female rats when carried in the womb with a male sibling on each side, turned out to have higher testosterone levels and often exhibited more aggression and stress issues. So, if she has higher testosterone levels, she might be more likely to react to the scent of a male.

 

[jorats]

That said, an imbalance could be helped by a spay. Something interesting I learned at a seminar, female rats when carried in the womb with a male sibling on each side, turned out to have higher testosterone levels and often exhibited more aggression and stress issues. So, if she has higher testosterone levels, she might be more likely to react to the scent of a male.

Very interesting. Good to know.

 

[lindsayfawn]

I am thinking she has cage aggression. We had some good one on one time with her on the bed while watching tv and she did a lot of exploring but would come over to us and was fine with us picking her up and giving her cuddles. She didn't nip at all.

So how do you treat cage aggression? I have never dealt with that before.

Will giving her one on one time fix that or do we have to do something else?

 

[jorats]

How I deal with cage aggression: never put my hand in the cage while she is in there. lol

But seriously. If you going in, stresses her that much then don't do it. Offer her to come out before you need to go in the cage, that might help her a lot. Or, offer her a big treat, like a big piece of apple or orange so you have time to do what you need to do in the cage before she's done eating her healthy treat.

 

[Moon]

One on one time to enforce your bond certainly wont hurt the cage aggression. Bribery will be your best bet, though... if every time you enter the cage she's getting a super-tasty treat, it might help condition a positive response.

 

[Godmother]

Might be a job for SQ? She turned Corrie from a cage-aggressive lunge-biter to the sweetest rat of all time. :heart:

She loves working with biters. It takes a big heart and a lot of skill (and masochism???? :lol: ) to love a ratty like Edith. Edie & I never did get close, because she would sneak up and nip my toes. I hated that! RatsForever is also skilled with taming biters.

I hope that this rat isn't like Edith, because she really would not be adoptable.

 

[lindsayfawn]

I'll have to do the bribery for when she's in the cage. When she's out of the cage she's sweet as pie but in the cage she almost has that eyeing look as if to say " come on I dare you to stick your fingers in here again human" lol

Little bugger.

I want to try and deal with her first before I pawn her off on someone else lol I really don't like doing that. We'll see what we can do but If I find I'm just not getting anywhere then maybe someone with more experience could help out.

They would have to foster her as well as her sister Bella as they are extremely close.

I think I'll take her for a walk with me when I go to meet Ang after she's done work.

 

[Moon]

Maybe you should just PM SQ and ask for some advice... tips and tricks, yanno?