need help with my boys (intros)

[gidget]

Slash - 15 months old, lives alone.
Apollo and Ares - 9 months old (brothers) and Archer, 8 months, all live together. Apollo is the alpha, I believe Archer is 2nd, Ares is kinda...wimpy lol.
Nameless 3.5 week old baby (the only survivor of an oops litter).

I got Slash from a girl who had a litter but she didn't seem to give them much attention because he was terrified of being out. I think he was about 2 months old. I had 3 different males back then. I wanted to give Slash time to acclimatize before introducing them. I wasn't used to such a nervous rat and I guess I never really trusted him. I decided to let him run around outside the cage to get him used to being out. He got to the other boys one day and he bit one of them on the side of his nose pretty bad. That rat was about a year and a half and was the alpha, I was kind of worried about doing intros with him but he actually died very suddenly about a month later. The 2 remaining boys were 2.5 years and very nice, laidbacks boys. When I moved I realized I didn't have anything to put him in (had 2 cat carriers for the other boys and the girls). I decided to put Slash in with the boys in hopes the scary situation would distract him. It worked and they were all fine together for 2 days, then I heard a screech just as I was walking out the door for work, Slash had put a big cut on Leon my senile balding rex. I seperated them and then when I came back I tried them together again and he bit him again. I tried to step back and put them out together on my bed instead. Although he didn't act in any way aggressive, whenever he came near Leon, Leon would act cautious. I decided not to stress the old boys out during their 'golden years' and so Slash continued to live on his own. Granted it was a very small cage as I kept the 2 oldies in a one level cage for safety (one had HED and the other had bad balance).

When I got these 3 boys after the oldies passed away, I did try them out together on the couch and they were fine but I was too worried about their safety to go further. A couple weeks ago I thought I'd give it a try again. Since their cages are above each other, I decided to swap them into each other's cages. Slash acted completely fine, but after about an hour Apollo started a fight with Archer (Archer had to punctures on his back, Apollo had a bite on his ear). I put them back in their own cages but Apollo continued to be puffed up and tried to start something with Ares. I threw some cheerios in there and all was forgotten. I haven't attempted anything since then.

Now with this baby I'm wondering how to tie him into all of this. Should I just attempt to get Slash to be friends with him once he's old enough? I'd rather him have 3 friends but I'd also like it if Slash had company. If I were to attempt to intro all of them, what steps would you suggest? I do have girls too.

I know a neuter is an option but at $300 I thought I should try a proper introduction attempt first (and right now vet funds need to go towards my cats that are having horribly smelly diarrhea :/).

 

[hopefloats]

You cannot intro the baby till he is at least 10 weeks old. If you have an older crabby boy, he could kill him in one bite. With intros you have to go slow and small for some males. You have to have intros done daily so they can adjust. Males may fight with cage mates because their dominance is being tested or threatened depending on how they see it.

Try a scary place, like a tub. I prefer a table so I can cause and "earthquake" when attitudes rise up. Shaking the table generally makes them forget they hate the other rats out there. Keep lots of food for them if there is food around it usually makes them feel better. You can also try playing with the ones that will play then the other will usually jump in and that helps as well.

 

[jorats]

It seems to me that you give up fast but a lot of people are like that because it's definitely nerve wracking.
hopefloats is right that you really can't intro baby yet, not until 8 to 10 weeks old.
Best case scenario, get all four together. If not, then I'd try Slash with baby.

I would start intros again in the bathtub... this should be done for at the very least one week, one hour intro sessions with nothing in the tub except food, soft yummy food. Do that and let us know how it goes or if you like, record it and share it here and we can help you on how best to proceed. In the meantime, start saving up for a vet fund...neuters would do them a world of good.

 

[gidget]

I know he's too young, he's not even old enough to leave mom yet lol. I'll try the tub method with Slash and the trio, do I just put them all in at once?

 

[dspch911]

Listen to them on this site they know what they are talking about and be prepared. Even when things are going well expect the unexpected as we found out. We also found out things can look worse than they actually are, but our 2 injured boys are healing fine.

 

[jorats]

Yes, all at once. So that it's unfamiliar to them all.

 

[gidget]

It went really well, much better than I expected. I took videos, just going to go through them and upload them.

I'll give the basics though. When I put Slash in everyone was following him around and he was squeaking a lot. Apollo bit him on the back but that was the only agressive thing he did in the whole hour. At one point Archer starts grooming him and Slash is uncomfortable. I ran out of memory at this point and as I was searching for other videos to delete a mini fight broke out, I didn't see what happened exactly but I assume Slash just had enough of the grooming. Archer just stood there in shock for a couple minutes lol, so I don't think he started it, Apollo and Ares look shocked too. Ares did nothing the whole time and kept to himself in the corner mostly. However Slash seems to like him? He kept putting his head under his and groomed him a bit. He also put his head under Archers' later on...submission?

 

[jorats]

When they put their head lower, they are alpha. Keep a close eye on him but for a first day it sounds pretty good. Tomorrow, same place same thing, but be ready for more action. Second and third day rats get braver.

 

[gidget]

Sorry had a lot of trouble getting these videos uploaded.
Slash = variegated blaze
Apollo = beige
Ares = black
Archer = blue

9:01pm right after I put Slash in, Apollo bites him at about 41 seconds. He doesn't seem that interested in him for the rest of the intro.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Apollobites_zps89c8e133.mp4.html

9:09pm Slash puts his head under Ares'
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/HeadunderAres_zpse7ead531.mp4.html

9:12pm Archer starts grooming Slash 2 minutes in, it's hard to hear but Slash is making quiet protesting sounds (you can hear it best after 2:26). At the end Slash spins to get him to stop, this is when my memory filled up and it stopped recording. A bit after that is when the little scuffle occured.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Archergrooms_zps847880c5.mp4.html

9:16pm Just after the scuffle, Archer stands there stunned...Apollo is a little shocked too lol. Nothing really happens in these next 2 videos but I thought it might show what they're thinking.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Archershocked_zpsa0d17eb2.mp4.html

9:18pm Archer still stunned
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Archershocked2_zps5dc2d98e.mp4.html

9:20pm Archer puts his head under Slash's.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Archersubmitting_zpscbca21ef.mp4.html

9:34pm Slash does the same to Archer.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/Slashsubmitting_zpscb67fc2a.mp4.html

9:38pm Slash grooms Ares for a bit.
http://s4.photobucket.com/user/Discord_/media/SlashgroomingAres_zps7c995420.mp4.html

So other than the one fight I missed the only other thing worth mentioning is maybe about 45min in Apollo stands up looking to the edge of the tub, then rests his front paws on Slash for a second and the tip of Slash's wiggled like a rattlesnake. I kept them there for the full hour, they didn't really do much. There was never any siddling, kicking, huffing or really much poofing.

I haven't put them together for day 2 yet but I will tonight, here's hoping they are still good then :/.

 

[jorats]

I would have some soft food in the tub with them to distract them. Good videos. The ones to watch will be the blue guy and Slash.

 

[gidget]

A lot more activity tonight like you said. Slash is very grumpy :/ him and Apollo had a ratball fight and he's been poofy and doing a lot of tail swishing. Him an Archer keep making me nervous too, they get very still around each other. I took Apollo out for a couple minutes because he was very poofy and chattery, and to clean his bite mark. I have Slash with me for a couple minutes as I type this, hope that's ok? I figured a couple minutes to cool off is good? Going back now... anic:

edit: Slash was humping Ares too.

 

[jorats]

It sounds like Slash is a dominant boy and the other guys are trying to bring him down a notch.
Yes, it's good you did that with Slash, sometimes a time out is needed.
Next time you see Slash tensing up or about to go and lunge at someone for that dreaded rat ball, place your full hand over him, and gently press his head towards the ground. He is going to squirm big time and scream but stick with it. Don't let him run off. You control when he's let go. So, maybe 3 seconds with his head pushed down. That should calm him some. Keep doing that to all the guys who become bullies.

 

[gidget]

Ok day 3 was last night, I wasn't able to do the intros on Saturday. I watched a video on youtube about using the 'gloved rat method', basically she prevents anything aggressive from happening so that the rats don't form a dislike for the other rat by having a bad experience I guess? So I tried to employ that along with the hand method you described.

Slash still did a lot of tail wagging and he seemed to be 'waddling' and kind of pushing through the other rats. I only saw one instance of Archer stiffen up near Slash this time. Apollo didn't pay him too much attention but he did get slighty puffy and agitated a couple times. Ares just kept to himself as usual. They other guys usually lay down after awhile but Slash wouldn't stay relaxed, he seemed agitated like he had aggressions pent up so I thought I would give him a little freedom. He humped Archer and Ares, and tried to hump Apollo but I could see Apollo was about to spin at him so I stopped them. At one point Apollo layed on his side right beside Slash (back feet completely out), Slash took a few steps away and Apollo followed and layed down again, does that mean anything? What should I be looking for to indicate that things are progressing? Should I keep preventing altercations that may come up or just let them do what they want as long as it's not a rat ball fight?

 

[jorats]

Sounds like you are doing an awesome job. Keep doing it the way you are doing it. At this point, I would keep preventing any altercations.

 

[gidget]

I've moved them to a large ottoman. The first night Apollo was very puffy but he didn't do anything. Archer did his typical grooming which resulted in a fight when Slash had enough (Archer was the attacker), other than that it went fine. Day 2 the only incident was again Archer grooming Slash, this time he tolerated it longer but eventually he spun around when he had enough but I prevented any fighting (they were a little on edge after). Day 3 which is tonight, again there were no incidents, again Archer groomed him but this time Slash let him finish and I gave them a treat for being good. They seem to be getting along, they'll all lay down in a row together. How long should I keep them at this stage?

 

[jorats]

That's really good thinking about the treat for being good.
I would continue with this until there is no sign of Slash getting upset or for Archer not being so forceful with the grooming. Maybe another 4 days or so.

 

[gidget]

So a little update...good news is I have them all living together, buying a CN with no scents to be territorial over helped. Bad news is Archer seems to have gotten worse with aggression issues. I thought I would post in here since all the background info is already available.

Before I put them all together he had started harassing Ares, who is what I assume at the bottom of the hierarchy. Apollo is/was the alpha, I thought Archer was the beta...he might still be because he doesn't bother Apollo at all? Or do I have them mixed up? Apollo started the fights first with Slash when I first introduced them then he seemed to accept him throughout the intros. Archer would always try to groom Slash and Slash wouldn't have it, which started fights. For awhile he did give in to Archer's wishes and just let him groom him. I feel something has changed recently though, Slash starts screaming and will actually jump from the shelf of the CN to the bottom to get away from him, and then back up the side of the cage to the shelf as Archer marches up and down the ladder trying to follow him. He also pushes his paws into the bedding like rats do when they take bad tasting medicine. I don't know if the frequency of Archers attacks has increased, or if Slash has just gotten more stressed and sensitive. Apollo is good 95% of the time, a couple of disagreements here and there but I haven't seen him causing issues unless I put the house from his old cage in there (even though I bleached it and scrubbed it) so I leave it out. I think just the young male I introduced to Slash is his peeve once in awhile (5 months old - I've seen a couple tiffs with Ares and him too). Slash seems to cause no problems at all, he has improved a lot since he gained a cagemate (him and the young one have been together a few months now). Archer is just about to hit a year old and Slash is almost 20 months.

When Archer is aggressive with Slash I push him down with my hand, it seems to work once in awhile. Yesterday I had enough so I put Archer in his own cage. Earlier today I put him back and Slash freaked out and hid in his favourite hammock. Archer got poofy so I've currently got him in the other cage again.

I know that a neuter will be suggested but I can't do that right now. Is there any other suggestions? Why does he have such a huge issue with Slash and no one else? (and Ares previously, but not quite as bad) If I separate him for awhile will he not feel so empowered? It would be nice to have them all in one cage but maybe I should just keep him and Apollo together? Also as a side note, Archer is very good with me, when he's calm he's the lickiest rat.

 

[jorats]

Instead of pulling him out for long duration, can you do a time out cage instead?
A very small cage with nothing in it. No food, no water, no toys, no bedding. Each time he bullies, pull him out of the big cage and put him in the time out cage for no more than 10 minutes each time. You might have to do this several times before he decides to be nice and not be sent to the boring cage.
The other thing you could try is to pull him out into a new cage for 2 weeks. And then restart intros then.

 

[gidget]

Ok I'll try the small cage tactic first, I forget how smart they are...