Need help with biting Rats.

[Scythe]

I currently have six rats, they all live together in a double CN.

I am running into problems with biting, nipping, and being rougher than usual on my hands. I could deal with it up until Sunday morning when Artemis nearly took the entire tip of my right index finger clean off and it bled for 6 hours while I had to try and groom/bathe dogs/etc. And now, I've just gotten home from my boyfriends, and the first thing any of the rats do.... Logan decides to take a nip atmy knuckle, and actually breaks skin and makes it bleed. This is INCREDIBLY rare for Logan, he's NEVER bitten before. He is the type of rat I would trust my 7 year old cousins to kiss on the head repeatedly and he'd just sit there and take it like he loves it. So they are really testing me on this biting thing, now.

I USED to hand wrestle, but after the rat who loved hand wrestling the most bashed his teeth after it(I suspect, its the only reason I could think that could screw up his teeth, becuase he really BOUNCED after being ruffled), I stopped doing it to everyone and that was about a year ago. I have some rats who have always nipped and I just always told them "No" or eeped, but it never really worked. But I feel like now if it's going to come down to 6 hour bleeding sprees and potentially learning to bite from each other, I need to do something about it.

These are the 6 rats:
Suri - approx 3, Spayed, I speculate her to be Seras' mother. HED, old, lazy, doesn't do much besides eat, sleep, and be cute.
Peter + Wade - Both neutered, brothers, >1 year old. They put their teeth on me quite often, but never enough to actually hurt or even break skin.
Seras - approx 2, spayed, VERY territorial. Will bite inside the cage, not outside. She's never broken skin.
Logan - 2, UNNEUTERED, lazy fat boy(2+lbs). VERY VERY rough with Peter, but only inside the cage. Never ever rough with people. Never, ever dreamed of biting until tonight.
Artemis - >1, spayed, quite aggressive with people. She's approximately 9 months, Ive had her for 2-3 months, and 5 months of her life prior to me, she was free reign in a Petsmart because she got loose. They adopted her to me because they knew this would happen. Always "nipped" but never more than once after I say No, or eeped. To give you an idea of her socialization: Dr.Munn, nor I, can even hold Artemis. .

So, that makes 5 out of my 6 rats brave enough to put teeth on people. I love them dearly and I'd never get rid of any of them over this, but I feel like I need to get at least Artemis to stop thinking she is a pirahna, and what I can do with Logan should he ever try and bite me again(Time outs do not work, I not only forget he's in time out, but he doesnt care). Seras I would LOVE ideas on how to teach her to stop being territorial. Peter and Wade I can live with -- they really put absolutely no pressure into their "nips". I'm just worried Artemis is potentially passing on bad behaviours to Logan and then possibly others.

Hopefully this all makes sense. In TL;DR: I have a few rats who bite, what are some things I can do to teach them to stop?

 

[Godmother]

Time to call on lilspaz68 & SQ, who seek out biters! Also Jorats, who has coped with a few over the years. And some others more experienced than I am. I'm a chicken when it comes to bitey rats.

 

[jorats]

Logan, at his age, a behaviour change can be due to health issues primarily PT.

All these rats live together? For how long? How long have they all been with you? Are these new behaviours?

 

[Scythe]

I would ask Shelagh, but I know she's sick right now. I figure when she's feeling better she'll see it -- Logan actually came from Shelagh.

Jo, They do all live together. I'm not sure exactly how long, but Artemis was the most recent addition about ...2-3 months ago? A week and a half-ish after her spay intro's started. She got a LOT better with other rats and the intro was so easy that she was living with them in a week. It's people she's SUPER bad with. I'm only NOW being able to move her from the bed to the cage using my hands and not shooing her into a house, and even then I have to be super fast and I hold onto the base of her tail so she does not jump(it's like a five second move, the beds literally 2 feet from the door). Logan was always super stupid about Peter. He's never broke skin though, so I just let him be. It's ONLY Peter he's been rough/aggressive/bully with out of those he lives with.

Logans been with me since he was six months old. (I also forgot to add, Logans personality only changed drastically after his brother Kurt died unexpectedly when they were a year old. Before then, he was never ever rough with any rat. Then Kurt died and he would go for Percy, but then when Peter came along, He left Percy alone for Peter.). Seras and Suri I've had for about a year and a half or so. Peter+Wade about 8 months? Artemis about 2-3 months.

Logan biting ME is New. Seras has always been territorial and I've had no luck fixing it yet. Artemis has always been rough/rude with people, and very hard to handle because of literally NO human interaction until she was caught and by then she was like 7 months old.

 

[jorats]

You are going to need an arsenal of treats, all different kinds of varying value. Start small, and always hand them a treat when you go to the cage, each one gets a treat when you are near the cage.

Do they get a routine out time? Do they have access to the cage when there is out time? Like for me, I pull out a ladder and they can choose to come out on their own or go back in. Can you set something up like that? That might help with behaviour, meaning, always give them a choice. When they make the right choice, either if it's lunging but no biting, give a treat, if it's to come out and play and come near you and not bite, give a treat... along those lines.

 

[Scythe]

You are going to need an arsenal of treats, all different kinds of varying value. Start small, and always hand them a treat when you go to the cage, each one gets a treat when you are near the cage.

Do they get a routine out time? Do they have access to the cage when there is out time? Like for me, I pull out a ladder and they can choose to come out on their own or go back in. Can you set something up like that? That might help with behaviour, meaning, always give them a choice. When they make the right choice, either if it's lunging but no biting, give a treat, if it's to come out and play and come near you and not bite, give a treat... along those lines.

They're out for about 40minutes to an hour a day depending on work schedule etc. The only day they usually dont get out is thursdays because I'm not home.

I might be able to work out something like that, my only concern is that at least three of them would rather stay in the cage. Seras, Peter and Wade are always the firsts to want to go back into the cage after like 10 minutes(if that) of out time. And thats me pulling them out onto the bed, not them out on their own choice. Artemis always approaches me in the cage(scatters fast if I move though) but I'm not sure if she would venture out on her own.

The treat thing is easy, I just have to pick up the jar and they're all at the doors like beggars, haha.

 

[jorats]

So they are good with you for treats, they've already made the connection. So now, make them work for it and deserve the treats. One way to make them come out is having a yummy liquidy food out waiting for them. Try that a couple of times and see how that goes.

 

[Scythe]

Bitten again tonight on the same finger that Artemis already got me on. Been trying the "choice" out time but literally no one leaves the cage except Wade, Seras, and Artemis(and Artemis is the hardest to get back IN the cage), and I spend about 40 minutes trying to catch the ones who do leave the cage cause when they leave they climb up the cage and behind and become incredibly hard to catch cause they dont come back. They never ever just go out of the cage to be where there supposed to be -- they ONLY leave the cage to climb it and go over and down the back and then down to the floor(where they arent allowed, and Artemis is definitely NEVER allowed since her first 5 months of life were free range).

I'm at my wits end because I feel like now the only rat I can trust to not bite me, I may lose tomorrow and that leaves me with rats I don't trust my fingers near 100%.

 

[jorats]

It's really frustrating when our companions choose to eat us. I think with Artemis... might be a lost cause. I'd just keep doing trust training with her.
I have two here, Percy and Lincoln, I can't really touch. They don't bite me, but they will nip me. So I decided to love them from afar. I don't touch them except if I really need to. Lately though, Lincoln has been needing some manhandling due to an abscess after his neuter. I've noticed that it seems to be helping with our relationship.
So forget the choice out time, since it's more stressful on you. Go back to how you were doing. Try going to the cage and taking a rat out and spend 5 minutes with that rat in your hands, cuddling, petting, giving treats, then put him back in. Wait a bit and choose another rat and so on. Maybe it will get them to see you as friend not a chew toy.

 

[Scythe]

It's really frustrating when our companions choose to eat us. I think with Artemis... might be a lost cause. I'd just keep doing trust training with her.
I have two here, Percy and Lincoln, I can't really touch. They don't bite me, but they will nip me. So I decided to love them from afar. I don't touch them except if I really need to. Lately though, Lincoln has been needing some manhandling due to an abscess after his neuter. I've noticed that it seems to be helping with our relationship.
So forget the choice out time, since it's more stressful on you. Go back to how you were doing. Try going to the cage and taking a rat out and spend 5 minutes with that rat in your hands, cuddling, petting, giving treats, then put him back in. Wait a bit and choose another rat and so on. Maybe it will get them to see you as friend not a chew toy.

I try with Artemis, but the hard thing with her is that she'll gladly come to the front of the cage, check things out, etc, take treats and sniff... but she just randomly snaps sometimes. Never outside the cage.

The rest I can do the handling thing(well, maaybe not seras... depending the day, because she bites in-cage), hopefully that helps... I miss having a cuddly rat already, the last cuddler rat I had was put down this morning.

 

[jorats]

Sorry for your loss and I know you might feel discouraged when the rest of your crew are simply not cuddlebugs, but you will have a heart melting moment with one of them, might not be soon, but it will happen and that will have made it all worth it.
For me, that moment came yesterday, when Percy came up to me and actually climb my lap. I froze and savoured the moment. :heart:

 

[Scythe]

Sorry for your loss and I know you might feel discouraged when the rest of your crew are simply not cuddlebugs, but you will have a heart melting moment with one of them, might not be soon, but it will happen and that will have made it all worth it.
For me, that moment came yesterday, when Percy came up to me and actually climb my lap. I froze and savoured the moment. :heart:

Artemis does things like that sometimes -- inthe last week while the biting hasn't stopped, she will come up to me outside of the cage more often. I think she is learning from Peter, who is notorious for launching off the bed at me to get back to the cage(I am just a route from a to b to him) and she sees him jumping on me so she is curious. But the second my hands get to close she runs.

Logans kind of cuddly, but not the "sit in your lap for hours" cuddly. He's a "pet me for two minutes and then I will slide away or stop you by grooming your entire hand" cuddler. He is becoming less interested though as he gets old, and now would much rather destroy everything in sight. *eyeroll*

 

[jorats]

You certainly have your hands full with this crew.

 

[Joanne]

Wow, I don't envy you! I would be in trouble if I had any biters as I grab and kiss randomly. (I was bitten by my ferret through my nose once! LOL)
Hang in there and be careful. I think you're doing great with Artemis, as she was basically a wild (domestic) rat. I hope they calm down so you can enjoy them.