Mystery bacteria/abscess - Need somebody who has experienced

[MadCatter]

I'm onto my third rat with this same type of abscess and am desperately hoping somebody has seen this before and can give me some advice (whether it be "sorry, you're doomed" or an actual treatment). The pus is greenish and elmer's glue consistency, NO smell.

Rat 1: Long history of the abscesses around his neck and shoulders. After vigorous flushing and keeping up with the abscesses, they disappeared for a while, only to show up deep in his abdomen. (It was after he seemed in the all-clear that he was introduced to his then other 5 cagemates). Vet thought it was a tumor, and after assessing the risks, it was decided not to operate, and to just let it grow. The big abscess caused smaller ones on his stomach to appear and open up on their own. Baytril and then chloramphenicol didn't seem to make any sort of dent.

WARNING: pictures of abscess, and abscess next to the dead rat:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2448/356 ... fb85cc.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2443/356 ... e5b193.jpg


Rat 2: Had a severe head tilt because previous owners refused to take her to the vet. She was treated, but remained very wobbly and completely deaf. Shortly after Rat 1's smaller abscesses opened up, Rat 2 developed the abscesses symmetrically on either side of her throat, with one very large one on her esophagus. Those opened on their own, then more appeared, on either side of her neck, and symmetrically one in each of her armpits. these were lanced and she was started on Clavamox, which seemed to be working, until they popped up again - three very large abscesses pressed up into her neck and two more on her shoulders/armpits. She's since been PTS.

Rat 3: She developed a single abscess right on her esophagus which was caught early, lanced, flushed with iodine, and cultured. Vet didn't identify the individual bacteria (I didn't have the $90 on me to send it to the university) but the vet did place different antibiotics on it after letting it grow a bit. He said that Clavamox and Baytril were most effective, relatively speaking, but that they still were just sub-par. With Rat 3 in quarantine, she was put on baytril for the last 3 weeks. She developed another abscess (a different one, to the right, not the same one filling up again) the night before last.


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It seems to be internalized, spreading through possibly lymph nodes or the blood stream, and they only seem to spread to the other rats once the old ones open - perhaps when they try to clean each other's abscesses, and ingest the bacteria, but I honestly don't really know. It's been looked at by two different vets who specialize in small animals/exotics, as well as a cat/dog vet, and none have seen this type of pus (all are shocked that it doesn't smell - and it hasn't for any of the rats' abscesses).

My next step was to possibly hit Rat 3's body hard with a combination of antibiotics (while providing lots of beneficial bacteria to help with stomach upset), but I really don't know how useful this will be - what combination to try? How long and how strong? Considering the "behavior" of the bacteria/abscesses, it is perfectly possible that Rat 3 wont show any more signs of illness/abscesses, and in another 2 months after stopping treatment, have them appear again - this means I don't feel safe ever putting her back in with the others - and so is it worth even trying to get rid of?

 

[ryelle]

MY GOD THAT IS THE LARGEST ABSCESS IN THE WORLD!! Thats like what... one third to half the rats size in length, and the same in width

 

[lilspaz68]

Ouch, the first rat seems to have the same thing that my tonka does, but my vet DID operate (2nd surgery was yesterday) and the post if you are curious is in Health.

Try chlorpalm, its one of the best for penetrating things.

I am so sorry Madcatter how awful for you. I wonder if the antibiotic beads we are trying on Tonks would do anything for your girl?

 

[MadCatter]

What do you know about Clindamycin for rats? I've both read people saying that it is dangerous for rats, and then I've also read several studies that say that clindamycin is both helpful and well tolerated in rats. Of the people who say not to use it in rats, I haven't been able to figure out exactly what it is that isn't good about it.

It's mostly used for anaerobic bacteria and hard to get abscesses, and my thoughts are that the bacteria may have built up a resistance to Baytril/Chloramphenicol/Clavamox due to the other rats it seems to have traveled through. I'd like to try something completely different that isn't typically used with rats in hopes that I can actually get this thing. The medical book at my boyfriend's vet clinic gives only diarrhea as the only warning for rats.

As for Rat 1 (Waynard), he was actually acting perfectly normal up until the last week of his life - he not only kept eating and exploring, but was able to fend off the others from his stash. It was that last week that it started to expand outwards, rather than staying compact in his body, and he was unable to use his back leg anymore.

 

[lilspaz68]

Very little on Clindamycin and pet rats so I would start somewhere else...

YOu could consider Chlormaphenicol Palmitate, renowned for

Indications
To treat serious infections due to organisms resistant to other less toxic antibiotics, or when its penetration into the site of infection is clinically superior to other antibiotics. Those bacteria sensitive to this drug include clostridium, chlamydia, mycoplasma, salmonella.

I used this with Brie's throat abscesses.

or possibly Flagyl/Metronidazole
We used this with Tonka
http://ratguide.com/meds/anti-infective ... flagyl.php

 

[sausage4ever]

I was just wondering MadCatter if any of your afflicted rats are/were related?

And if the abcesses are spreading from rat to rat somehow and killing them when they catch it, my only suggestion I can think of is, don't get anymore rats until all the ones you have pass. That way you can start over, without this disease(?) passing through your rats.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you, tumours are bad enough I couldn't imagine anything like this.

 

[Joanne]

You absolutely need to get it cultured for sensitivity.
It sounds like it may be travelling in the lymphatic system.
Do you have a vet school close enough to go to? Perhaps the school would take her on as a learning experience. Sometimes schools have more resources and have more heads to figure things out.

 

[MadCatter]

No relation between any of the rats. All three were at the bottom of the hierarchy however.

Of the 3 that are healthy: my youngest rat, who is also much quicker than the others (I'm half convinced she's actually part wild - came into my store for adoption with unknown background) and never really was able to be 'captured' and pinned by the others, is kind of in limbo as far as hierarchy goes. The two dominant rats are perfectly healthy (the dominant male had actually been exposed to waynard's abscess months before either of them even came to my home, exposed twice afterwards, he's never shown any symptoms).

Edit:
I called vet to see all the antibiotics he had used on the "culture" -

Clindamycin
Tetracycline
Doxycycline
Gentamicin
Ampicillin
Chloramphenicol (resistant to)
Baytril
Clavamox

Last two being most effective, but still not entirely.

Back to feeling hopeless about the whole situation.

 

[Rissa]

Sorry I can't be helpful, but I just wanted to say I hope you can figure this out. As others have said that tumor is huge.. I thought normal tumors were bad.. ewwww. I hope you don't lose all of them over something like this

 

[MadCatter]

Got the culture back - It's Klebsiella Pneumoniae

Resistant to Ampicillin, and intermediate with Cefuroxime and Cephalothin.

Susceptable to a number of things, clavamox and baytril being a couple, so I have her on Marbofloxacin/Enrofloxacin/Amoxicillin. We'll see if any more pop up a month from now.

 

[lilspaz68]

oh it WAS that one Madcatter? I am glad you have a diagnosis but what a terrible one to get

I have my fingers crossed for your girl. :sad3:

 

[ryelle]

i really dont understand the majority of the terms on what you linked....
does this mean that any rats in your 'colony' or that have come into contact with an affected rat have a chance of getting the same illness/disease?

 

[MadCatter]

i really dont understand the majority of the terms on what you linked....
does this mean that any rats in your 'colony' or that have come into contact with an affected rat have a chance of getting the same illness/disease?

I'm not entirely certain about whether there's a chance my other 'healthy' rats have it, but it's just not active, or if they're actually clear of the bacteria. Horses supposedly are carriers their entire lives even after symptoms clear up. The others have all been exposed to it several times, so I wonder if they don't just have it in their bodies but have a strong enough immune system to suppress it so far.

It says that immunity is related to age... funny thing about that is that of my rats, my oldest rat (who was probably about the same age as Sgt Pepper anyway), my second and third from youngest were the ones to get it. The youngest and second from oldest are the ones that are perfectly healthy.

 

[jorats]

I think it's going to be a hit or miss situation with your rats. Hopefully they will be strong and overcome this illness.