my newly introduced boys, worried about behavior.

[Shay]

:sad3: so i have two male rats, the older one (6 1/2 months) moo moo, and the younger one (almost 11 weeks) Archimedes. i have been doing the cage swapping now for almost 3 weeks. and prior to that i did the cages next to each other for about 2 weeks. i have not had them out and together until today, me and my husband brought the boys out on neutral ground and they didnt even flinch about being there together,.. i had purchased some new toys and stuff for them in a big cardboard box and let them play in there and they were totally fine... i cleaned out the big cage i have that's a 4 story condo, which is moo moo's normal home, i even bleached everything to get all previous smells out completely and then i let it dry before i put anything new in it. it took me 2 hours to do, i made it completely new with new chewables and toys and a big hammock for them (which they havent even touched yet btw) however when i placed them in the cage together for the first time they were more interested in their new surroundings, but then i noticed that they started to pick "fights" with each other. slight boxing, even mounting. they didnt yell or fight to the point of bloodshed but Archimedes made moo moo squeak alil bit here and there. Archimedes would go on top of moo moo and underneath and moo would squeak for no reason. they have been on and off doing this now for the last 5 hours. and now moo moo is on the 4th level sleeping and staying away and Archimedes is on the bottom doing the same to moo moo. moo has come down to re-arrange the bedding now twice and they have been nose to nose and havent done anything. but moo will sometimes show him his rear and not puff up, but then sometimes he does that AND puffs up. there has been NO BLOODSHED at all, so im curious is this just this way of determining the pecking order or should i really be concerned. And Archimedes wont go up the ladder because i think he is afraid of heights and or the ladder. so hes been staying down on the bottom level. PLEASE HELP i want them to get along. and ive worked so hard to get them in one cage, i dont know what im doing wrong?! this is my first intro btw. anic: :sad3: :cry4: :cry3: :why: :crazy2:

 

[GrayLightNewDay]

How many times did you introduce them on neutral ground? And did you introduce them on common ground before trying them out in the same cage together?

 

[jorats]

Archie, if you don't mind I shorten his name, is probably playing and being an annoying younger brother to moo moo.
He is probably not climbing the ladder because he knows moo moo is up there, wanting alone time.
It also sounds like Archie is playing with moo moo and moo moo is squeaking from protest or maybe even playing.
Usually when one does intros, it's a process that takes over a week. How long did it take you to get from neutral ground to living in the cage?
So far though, it sounds like it's going pretty good.

 

[Shay]

Archie, if you don't mind I shorten his name, is probably playing and being an annoying younger brother to moo moo.
He is probably not climbing the ladder because he knows moo moo is up there, wanting alone time.
It also sounds like Archie is playing with moo moo and moo moo is squeaking from protest or maybe even playing.
Usually when one does intros, it's a process that takes over a week. How long did it take you to get from neutral ground to living in the cage?
So far though, it sounds like it's going pretty good.

no i dont mind honestly i took them out of their cages and put them on neutral ground and then kept them in the box for a bit and they werent fighting so i placed them in the cage together all in one day. i did the cage swapping and and putting the cages together for over a month, so it was a slow introduction. although i did keep archie's cage (the smaller one) the way it was with his smell in it and i put moo moo in that one over night. the way it seems like they are acting is like moo moo is an old grumpy man and archie is the young hyper lil brother.. and today archie was grooming moo moo and he just sat there and closed his eyes. but moo wont groom archie at all. and it seems to me that moo is just irratated by archimedes if he gets close to him. they just had a little scuffle and now they are at a "mexican stand off". should i continue to keep moo moo out of the bigger cage at night for the next week or so till they dont fight at all?

 

[Shay]

How many times did you introduce them on neutral ground? And did you introduce them on common ground before trying them out in the same cage together?

not very many. they were on neutral ground twice together before i put them in the larger cage. and i honestly never thought about common ground isnt that the same thing? :?

 

[Shay]

Archie, if you don't mind I shorten his name, is probably playing and being an annoying younger brother to moo moo.
He is probably not climbing the ladder because he knows moo moo is up there, wanting alone time.
It also sounds like Archie is playing with moo moo and moo moo is squeaking from protest or maybe even playing.
Usually when one does intros, it's a process that takes over a week. How long did it take you to get from neutral ground to living in the cage?
So far though, it sounds like it's going pretty good.

no i dont mind honestly i took them out of their cages and put them on neutral ground and then kept them in the box for a bit and they werent fighting so i placed them in the cage together all in one day. i did the cage swapping and and putting the cages together for over a month, so it was a slow introduction. although i did keep archie's cage (the smaller one) the way it was with his smell in it and i put moo moo in that one over night. the way it seems like they are acting is like moo moo is an old grumpy man and archie is the young hyper lil brother.. and today archie was grooming moo moo and he just sat there and closed his eyes. but moo wont groom archie at all. and it seems to me that moo is just irratated by archimedes if he gets close to him. they just had a little scuffle and now they are at a "mexican stand off". should i continue to keep moo moo out of the bigger cage at night for the next week or so till they dont fight at all?

this is the picture of them. moo is the "dirty" rattie and archie is the hooded one.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3366_n.jpg

 

[jorats]

What kind of cage is that? What are the dimensions? Small cages can be the cause of fighting.
But, it sounds to me like they are getting on. Squabbles are normal and they may always go through those which again is quite normal. I would keep them together unless you see it escalate.
They are both very lovely rats!

 

[Shay]

What kind of cage is that? What are the dimensions? Small cages can be the cause of fighting.
But, it sounds to me like they are getting on. Squabbles are normal and they may always go through those which again is quite normal. I would keep them together unless you see it escalate.
They are both very lovely rats!

i dont know specifically how big it is but im attaching a photo of it so you can see it. its a big cage, they just had another scuffle. and no blood was drawn but moo was being mean, archie started yelling like screaming it seemed. and i removed moo because it looked like it was going to get worse if i hadnt. it gets really good and then gets really bad. i just idk. =/ :sad3:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 1680_n.jpg

 

[jorats]

I believe that's the rat resort and is pretty much a small cage but should be ok with your two. If you can afford it, I'd get a bigger cage with a base of 18" x 30".

If little Archie is screaming when moo gets too much of a bully, then ya, good to remove him. But make his "punishment" cage totally empty. No toys, no food, no water. Each time Moo bullies little Archie, remove him and place him in the punishment cage for no more than 10 minutes and then return to the cage.

 

[Shay]

I believe that's the rat resort and is pretty much a small cage but should be ok with your two. If you can afford it, I'd get a bigger cage with a base of 18" x 30".

If little Archie is screaming when moo gets too much of a bully, then ya, good to remove him. But make his "punishment" cage totally empty. No toys, no food, no water. Each time Moo bullies little Archie, remove him and place him in the punishment cage for no more than 10 minutes and then return to the cage.

okay ya i want to get a bigger cage i just need to find the right one for the right price. :thumbup:
how long do you think i should do that for? and do u think i should keep them separated at night still?
i really want them to be the best of friends i just hope i can break their bad habits. :sad3:

 

[Shay]

:sad3: :gaah: :wallbang: :hithorse: :censored: :sad4:
im losing my patience with my boys, they got into a fight again. this time it was on my chest.. i was laying on the couch and they were playing under my blanket and all the sudden moo started in with Archie. no blood was drawn but he does have a nip on his nape. im so frustrated with them.. my husband says i should start intros all over again.. im just at a loss. i dont want either one of my babies to get hurt.... :sad3: :gaah: anic: :cry4:

 

[GrayLightNewDay]

I did the cage swap/putting the cages next to each other for a month, as well. The what I did with my physical intros, was I started on neutral ground, which happened to be my bathroom tub and then I moved them to the bathroom floor when they were more comfortable together. After doing that for about a week, I would let them play on my bed together, which I use as their play area all the time, so my older girls saw it as their territory. After a few days if that, I tried them all in the big cage together (which I had just bought and never used, so it had no ones scent). They have been in the big cage together for four days now, and my oldest girl is still being a bit of a brat. I use the punishment cage idea that jorats told you about, and even though I have only been using it for a few days, it does seem to be working. I went from having to use it like 6 times on the first day, to using it once or twice a day now.

 

[jorats]

I once adopted two brothers from a Montreal shelter, these two were a year old and new to me. But I kept hearing one of them scream while his brother Pascal kept flipping him over. I thought I was definitely going to need to neuter Pascal. But one night, when the screaming started again, I decided to hide and watch. Vincent would run up the ramp and jump down on Pascal. So Pascal would then flip him over and make him scream. Then I saw Vincent jump back up, run up the ramp and jump on Pascal again, starting the process over again... I realized they were actually playing, not fighting.

Any chance you can take a video of the two... we can generally tell if they are playing or fighting.

 

[Shay]

I did the cage swap/putting the cages next to each other for a month, as well. The what I did with my physical intros, was I started on neutral ground, which happened to be my bathroom tub and then I moved them to the bathroom floor when they were more comfortable together. After doing that for about a week, I would let them play on my bed together, which I use as their play area all the time, so my older girls saw it as their territory. After a few days if that, I tried them all in the big cage together (which I had just bought and never used, so it had no ones scent). They have been in the big cage together for four days now, and my oldest girl is still being a bit of a brat. I use the punishment cage idea that jorats told you about, and even though I have only been using it for a few days, it does seem to be working. I went from having to use it like 6 times on the first day, to using it once or twice a day now.

if they continue to fight and bicker like this i might start all over using your technique.

 

[Shay]

I once adopted two brothers from a Montreal shelter, these two were a year old and new to me. But I kept hearing one of them scream while his brother Pascal kept flipping him over. I thought I was definitely going to need to neuter Pascal. But one night, when the screaming started again, I decided to hide and watch. Vincent would run up the ramp and jump down on Pascal. So Pascal would then flip him over and make him scream. Then I saw Vincent jump back up, run up the ramp and jump on Pascal again, starting the process over again... I realized they were actually playing, not fighting.

Any chance you can take a video of the two... we can generally tell if they are playing or fighting.

i wouldnt be so afraid to put them back together however archie has that nip on his nape im worried about. i dont want to put him in harms way. =[ what ill do is put them in our bathtub and let them play in there for a bit and send a video. i REALLY hope they dont kill each other. :sad3: :gaah:

 

[M0onkist]

It really doesn't sound like they will kill each other - it's just the usual 'getting to know you and your playing technique' from the sounds of it. But if you can, like Jo said, do shoot a video and send it along, we can definitely tell from a video.

I like the bathtub because it's a 'scary' locale (i.e. high white walls, slippery surface, never before seen...). I did the bathtub with my Mr. Honeycomb who was 600g and three girls who were each maybe 150g. What I did was I put a blanket or two down, no hidey holes where they could feel trapped, and put one big dish of irresistible food in the middle. They were so happy stuffing their faces they didn't care who was sharing with them, which starts them off on the thought pattern that 'hey, maybe that guy isn't so bad after all...' Mind you, Mr. Honeycomb was an especially easy case, as he was desperate for companionship and wanted only to be used as a big squishy pillow by the girls - their intro took maybe a week of bathtub/bed intros. It's just important to be patient - it does work out in time!