My four boys together again! intro day two and three updated

[hprats]

So, on jorats' suggestion, I decided to try a neutral intro before having Peter neutered (my four have been split into pairs for months after Peter's aggression towards Fred).

It went great. 30 minutes of relaxed interactions, mutual grooming for all! A tussle broke out between Fred and Peter, and I separated them in a second.

but here are my pictures from the event:

[img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WIoHW5KqIjs/TyzEOauYDKI/AAAAAAAAC2M/7uWxnkxftOQ/s400/IMAG0049.jpg[/img:h7nyann6]
[img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Glf29cTfs3c/TyzE80gqkjI/AAAAAAAAC2I/4rqMnn__VGE/s640/IMAG0051.jpg[/img:h7nyann6][img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QXAL6ndsCFE/TyzIdkXKydI/AAAAAAAAC2A/dpdpVgGtDfk/s400/IMAG0081.jpg[/img:h7nyann6]
[img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KNYTqDSBcyg/TyzHfaX270I/AAAAAAAAC14/Kp_i4v33fiE/s400/IMAG0062.jpg[/img:h7nyann6]
[img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ebxLo6V8Jso/TyzH8DeU27I/AAAAAAAAC1s/MS9JF29xyUI/s400/IMAG0069.jpg[/img:h7nyann6]
[img=center:h7nyann6]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_ZivYl7QcCg/TyzIn41YwmI/AAAAAAAAC1o/IcyHrz80X5M/s640/IMAG0084.jpg[/img:h7nyann6]
The last one is at least 5 minutes before the fight broke out between them. Peter is on top of Fred there, and they're the only two who ever had any problems. Peter was relaxed, but Fred was stressed out the whole time. He tried to jump out of the tub several times. Fred did take his turn grooming each one of the others though!

 

[hopefloats]

i love when intros go ok. I hope it continues for you

 

[jorats]

It's looking pretty good for a start. Make sure not to end intros on a bad note. After the tussle, give everyone a treat, wait a 5 minutes and then end it.

 

[hprats]

Ah, okay!

Well day two of intros (yesterday night actually) started off much more tense. Peter and Fred got in a fight within what seemed like a minutes, but may have been a bit longer. First I pulled Fred out, but then Peter went after Neville, so I pulled Peter out and put him in the sink and put Fred back in the tub, where he got into a bit of a tussle with Albus, but nothing serious. Fred and Neville both had bites that broke the skin though (Fred one, Neville two ).

But I didn't want to end it on a bad note, so I let Peter calm down and tried to get them all to eat little bits of chocolate, but I think Albus was the only one who did. Once he'd lost his puffiness, I put Peter back in though, and everything went better from there. Fred was pretty nervous, but not as nervous as Neville. The poor guy barely moved a muscle for the rest of the session.

Peter and Fred did well though. Peter did some humping , about four times, and fake biting of Fred's neck. But not real biting, Fred didn't seem to upset, so I figured it was a dominance thing and left them to it. Fred groomed Peter a few times, and then humped Peter once, and Peter didn't stop it though. There was a lot of boxing.

To be honest, I think the problem is Fred, not so much Peter. I don't think he's aggressive, but he's not very bright. I think he is having trouble understanding normal rat behavior and dominance structures. He's my boy that has a tendency to get injured, and he's the only one that will jump off the couch, and generally, if he wants something, he won't stop coming until he gets it or I put it away, no matter how many times I move him/push him away from whatever it is.

 

[hopefloats]

If the biting looks like fleaing...when a dog bites in one spot that is just a grooming thing. It is a good thing to see. If a boy does it or allows it then life is good for them. I have found that my troublemakers can be the pest and not so much the one who is biting or trying to pin them. The once who run a muck will usually get pounced on by an adult that does not approve.

Tweek is a humper. He humps tart constantly. Tart bites and starts to pin him, tweek is the issue. Tweek will get put in line then look like he lost his best friend for two seconds then another rat goes by him...he does it again. Unless your rat is like tweek the excitement will usually settle down. Then if they attack for no reason one may need to be neutered

 

[hprats]

"If the biting looks like fleaing...when a dog bites in one spot that is just a grooming thing. It is a good thing to see. If a boy does it or allows it then life is good for them. I have found that my troublemakers can be the pest and not so much the one who is biting or trying to pin them. The once who run a muck will usually get pounced on by an adult that does not approve."

Yeah, it is not that grooming biting. Or it wasn't. I did see a lot of that today, which was good. No humping today either. I don't think any of them are humpers...tweak sounds silly hahah.

Day three went much better I think. I had to break apart Fred and Albus once, but no blood was drawn. Peter was really good. He didn't want to cause trouble. He was pretty relaxed a lot of the time, though he puffed up a bit when Fred came around. Fred was definitely the most dominant/aggressive today. He was the only one who kept putting his front paws on the others' backs, and he shoved his nose into their rumps a few times. The others all just did the side pressing-arched back thing. There was no boxing. Neville groomed both Peter and Albus and they groomed him back. Fred groomed everyone but no one groomed Fred.

One question though. When one sticks his head under the other's head...not the whole body, and not roughly, is that a sign of dominance or submission? I read it as a sign of submission like "groom me" but I'm not sure.

They were all a lot more comfortable though. They all enjoyed the plate of yogurt I put in for them, even Neville, who wouldn't even touch the chocolate I offered him yesterday. He also approached the others several times, unlike yesterday when he sat frozen the whole time.

I've switched their cages now. I left each of them with their favourite hammocks, and I didn't wash them, and I only changed their bedding, I didn't scrub and soak their floors and shelves, to retain more of their scents. They also have each other's hide outs now.

 

[jorats]

It's a sign of dominance. The one placing his head underneath is the boss.
It does sound though, that Fred is definitely the boss of the group. All in all, looks like it's going pretty good.

I'm going to move this to behaviour so it doesn't get lost in this section.

 

[hprats]

Thanks.

Day four was rough, but I watched your intro videos on youtube, and I think I may be splitting fights up too soon. I think it was in the fourth vid that I saw a fight I would have intervened in, but you let them sort it out. I'm just afraid of injuries, you know?

 

[jorats]

Thanks.

Day four was rough, but I watched your intro videos on youtube, and I think I may be splitting fights up too soon. I think it was in the fourth vid that I saw a fight I would have intervened in, but you let them sort it out. I'm just afraid of injuries, you know?

For sure, and if you feel you want to intervene do it. I know my rats very well and I know when it's going to be a bad one. If you are not able to tell the difference, then go ahead and intervene. There's nothing wrong in you the boss moving in and saying enough.

 

[hprats]

Thanks.

Day four was rough, but I watched your intro videos on youtube, and I think I may be splitting fights up too soon. I think it was in the fourth vid that I saw a fight I would have intervened in, but you let them sort it out. I'm just afraid of injuries, you know?

For sure, and if you feel you want to intervene do it. I know my rats very well and I know when it's going to be a bad one. If you are not able to tell the difference, then go ahead and intervene. There's nothing wrong in you the boss moving in and saying enough.

Okay, thanks. We'll see how day 5 goes. I gave us all a day off (only because I'm too busy to give them 100% focus for that much time :S). But...I just worry if I split them up too quickly, they'll never figure out who's boss. But we'll see.

 

[jorats]

. But...I just worry if I split them up too quickly, they'll never figure out who's boss. But we'll see.

This is a possibility but it's still better to be safe than sorry. It just means that your intros will take longer.

 

[hprats]

^Okay, well I didn't have to worry about that decision...there were no fights during our intro today.

I gave them a full hour in the tub. They'd had two days off (not because I wanted to give us all time off, but because I just didn't have time to give them an hour of undivided attention), so I'm wondering if that affects it?

They were really relaxed today. They all took the time to lay down and close their eyes. They all ate the food treat. They all groomed Neville and put their paws on his back. Neville did some heavy grooming of Peter and Albus (his non-cagemates).

Neville seemed REALLY happy. Energetic and towards the end he laid next to Albus an eye-boggled. I don't think it was from stress. As I said in my other thread, he and Albus we really close before the split, so I'm feeling really guilty for keeping them apart for so long.

Fred and Peter were, as usual, the only questionable pair. There was one tense interaction I was worried about...Fred put his paws on Peter's back and bit/groomed him. Peter wasn't happy and tried to flip it, but Fred wasn't having any of that. There was a little tussle, with Fred mostly coming out on top, and then some boxing, and then Peter decided to go to the other side of the tub and they both relaxed.

I think this is a great sign?



It's weird, when they were together, Peter was the only one who got puffy, the only one who was aggressive. He attacked Fred once, and I went to the cage to check on them, but the fight had stopped so I was about to close the door but Fred jumped out of the cage onto my chest. I checked him and he had two open wounds. A week or so later, I was at work when another fight broke out and my boyfriend didn't know what to do. He was bitten, hard, by Peter more than once...and poor Fred. I asked my boyfriend if Fred was okay, and he said yes. I told him to put Fred in the spare cage, and he did, but oh man, if I'd been home I'd probably have tried to get him emergency stitches...the gashes were BAD.

So that's why I thought Peter needed a neuter, but now he is actually insanely relaxed. He might be my most laid-back rat. He loves scritches and puffs up less than Peter or Albus. (Neville is the least aggressive, but the most defensive and scared of everything, including me, so I wouldn't call him laid-back).

 

[jorats]

Some rats need time to adjust and consider the possibility of buddies. As time goes on, rats mellow out and some even learn to be a better buddy.
This is great but don't worry if there is a scuffle that breaks out, it's normal and you just need to work through them.