Maria's Intros (I don't know what to make of it)

[TheHermit]

Since I'm on here updating with Lilly, I might as well ask a bit about intros with Maria. I really, really want her to have a friend - it literally broke my heart the first time she was introduced to Penny, because all Penny did was sit there and sniff her, and Maria started boggling. Boggling! Just because another rat was near her! My mother (shes a very sentimental being) suggested she might think that Penny was one of her babies from before; Penny is so tiny.
But then Maggie entered the scene, and for some reason, Maggie got aggressive. Maggie squeaks if someone tries to lick her - Maggie squeaks if she doesn't see someone coming and Penny or Lilly brush up against her. It was so bizarre!
And even more bizarre, after the boggling and Maggie getting miffed, as soon as Maggie fought with Maria, Lilly literally ran to the bed, jumped up and started fighting with Maria immediately. I had already separated her and Maggie and put Maggie away.

Since then things are insanely tense. I've tried individual intros (when all of them are on the bed with her, Maria freezes up and looks terrified), and the only rat Maria gets along with is Penny, and even that doesn't last too long. Maggie gets puffy as soon as she smells her and tries to pin her.
But with Lilly... it's like a Mexican Standoff. Both of them just stand beside each other, lean into each other, very slowly puff up and their noses are almost touching. I keep my hand between them as much as I can, or if things get aggressive (Lilly moves to get under or over her) I separate them and keep Maria under my gloved hand. It's gotten to the point where if Lilly walks away, Maria will shove herself under my hand and sit there like it's shelter. It's kind of heartbreaking, knowing that with the girls around, a garden-gloved hand is her source of safety. While I appreciate the allusion to bonding, I wish it was the girls that were her source of safety. I'm running out of time to spend with her on a daily basis, and while she seems so much more comfortable and happy after settling in, I know she's lonely. I want her to have someone to cuddle with so badly! I'm scared to touch her with my bare hands still, she's broken a lot of skin, but we're getting better at trusting each other during out-time as far as touching is concerned. We're both a work in progress that way I suppose.
I've muddled up with school and work and have been trying to sort out my next moves in the lovely game of life, so attempts at intros are not nearly as frequent as they should be either.
Should I dedicate the next two weeks to heavily supervised, guarded intros, or should I start looking for another friend?

 

[hopefloats]

My girls are horrible with other girls. I can intro boys to boys with less problems than my girls. It took weeks. If they are ppiinning you have to let them settle it. Girls are louder in intros imo. Keep them at a scary spot and switch cages. I swear when pika moved in they fought for weeks after. A 5 min intro session is by far better than skipping a day I would do anything I could. I had two girls isis and lucy that fought so I stuck their butts on a chair they huddled there. Be creative they will simmer down

 

[jorats]

Have you had one girl actually lung, attack and cut open another?
If we are talking only pinning, puffing, boxing, grunting but never any real attack, then I'd keep at it. Like Hopefloats said, find a scary place, put the three girls on a small ledge somewhere, leave them there for 30 minutes. A few hours later, do it again. Put them on top of the washing machine while it's running. Put them in your sweater and walk around the house. Put them on your kitchen counter while you make yourself something to eat. Put them on the coffee table while you watch a TV show. Put them in the tub while you go to the bathroom. Or in the sink.

 

[TheHermit]

They do things slowly and kind of stomp towards each other, but once they fight there is always blood drawn. Maria's had her shoulder split and there's been swollen bites and a toenail lost from Penny, but they are all used to being on the bed. I feel pretty silly not thinking to just take one of the kitchen chairs and put it in the middle of the room - the counters and tables aren't too dirty and it would take a second to clean them off but my roommate's cat is untrustworthy.
Though the split shoulder was just broken skin, there's still always someone coming out bleeding from one of their feet at least. Is that a normal degree of viciousness towards each other for intros with girls? They are loud, and they do try desperately to pin each other, but no one lets up and I'm scared to let them tussle. Are bites & bleeding OK, as opposed to gaping holes turned abscesses or whole toes missing rather than nails?

 

[ratmando]

Hey there, just stumbled across this thread and thought I'd share my experience with intros with our Ninja Rat - Minx. I've talked to so many rat owners and read so much about intros, until I'm literally brain-overloaded, all because of my attempts to find Minx a friend or two. She was alone for the first six months of her life, in a small cage in a teenager's bedroom when I got her off of Kijiji. She never liked to be held and it took quite a while to get her to relax and not be nervous about everything. The only rat she ever accepted and didn't try to viciously attack was our resident older rat, Ruthie. We got Minx so that Ruthie wouldn't be alone after her sibling Millie died. Ruthie was over a year old when they met, Minx was six months. Calm, laid back Ruthie tolerated hyper Minx but at times she was fed up and wanted to be left alone. But when Ruthie died and we got more female rats, Minx then became the resident rat and would beat up everyone, very nasty fights. We did intros slowly, step by step, tried everything, but nothing has worked. I know that rats who are alone for a long time can become very insecure and it's hard to intro them to other rats. Minx has been alone since Ruthie died about 7 months ago, and I've tried everything I've read about or been told, to try to find her a friend. She is instantly vicious with other rats, no sniffing or sidling, just instant attack and biting, no matter where they meet. I could put them on Mars and she'd go ballistic on another rat, she literally loses all sense of herself and her surroundings. :gaah: I had a thought, maybe if I took her to another house, and she had to meet a resident rat who lived there, would she be different? I doubt it. I really do think some rats, no matter what you do, don't like other rats. Like people, some just never want to live with other people. Minx's cage is in between two other groups of girl ratty cages, so she sees them and has company. However, she goes wild if they're out and get too close to her 'house' which she's very protective of. She also seems jealous when I give attention to the other rats, but some people would say I'm just reading into it, and rats can't feel jealousy. If dogs can, and they do, I'm sure rats can. Anyway, all this to say, don't beat yourself up or let other ratties get the crap beat out of them, just to try and pair up Maria. If you've tried everything, and it doesn't work, maybe Maria is a Ninja Rat too. Hey, maybe Maria and Minx would get along? :lol: Good luck, keep us updated!

 

[TheHermit]

Thanks Ratmando, Maria was in a similar situation I believe, in the hands of a girl that clearly didn't care for her; being held is OK with her for some reason, as long as it is against our body - she likes sitting in my lap sometimes - but she's terrified of being picked up.
But after that last post today I cleaned off the kitchen table and put Maria there with Penny first, and they settled beside each other and Maria even let Penny groom her. I put Maggie there with both of them and same result. I put Lilly there, and though she puffed up, she also groomed Maria. At this point Maria had huddled against the toaster oven and wouldn't move, and looked thoroughly uncomfortable. I took the trio and put them away and she brightened up and started exploring the table.
So far, so good. I'm going to just do individual intros for a while since she is clearly uncomfortable with more than one at a time.

I appreciate that I can come here and make sure that I am doing things right, it means a lot to me.

 

[jorats]

Some rats hate other rats, but then there's one out there that will click with them. But we can't keep adopting rats to find that perfect match.
Some scratches and feet wounds are normal but it shouldn't continue.