Looking for advice on getting my two boys back together.

[veggies]

I posted about this but specifically need some advice on re-introductions after neuter for hormonal aggression.

I've never had to do rat introductions before-- I've always gotten them as a pair. My current boys, Baron and Basil, are brothers can have lived together since birth. They are now 14 months old and up until now have never bitten anybody.

Until they were a year old, Baron was the alpha. They had a few scuffles but never any injuries. Then one day I noticed Basil had become the dominant one after going through a small growth spurt. So for the past two months Basil has becoming more dominant with a few rough fights (hair tugged out but no blood), but last week there was a BIG fight where Baron had small but bleeding wounds to the flank, under his arm, and near his throat. An hour later, Basil bit me on the finger to the point of it almost going to the bone and doing some serious nerve damage. (It was my fault though, my finger still smelled like Baron, and he has not acted aggressively towards me since then).

So, they've been separated since last Sunday but their cages are only about a foot away. Basil is getting neutered on Wednesday. My main problem is that Baron is now TERRIFIED of his brother, to the point of running from my hands if they smell like Basil and constantly looking out for him while he is out for individual play time. Every time I try to do an intro, Baron gets even more scared and hides while Basil poofs up, chatters, and tries to bite him. So I think I'll wait until after the neuter to try again so I don't stress out Baron even more...

I'd like to get my boys back together ASAP, I can tell they're lonely. Thanks for any tips or personal experiences.

 

[jorats]

This is really baffling, especially at that age. When the bully chatters, you know he's having a real stressful time coping. Your vet will do a full check up/exam before proceeding with the neuter right? My concern is that there's something else going on.

Unless, there's been quite a change in their lives recently, like a move, a new pet, a new cage...then those factors could set off an already unstable rat. In this case a neuter will be good.

Re-introduction is usually pretty fast and easy. Once Basil loses his gonads, he will smell differently so Baron might not recognize him right away which is a good thing. Also, rats communicate to each other with sounds and signals that we are unaware of, no on our frequency... I'm guessing right now Basil is sending all the wrong messages, of alerts and caution which is scaring Baron. After the neuter, this should stop and should make Baron feel at ease again.
I would do intros on table top, after Basil recovers, about 3 to 4 days post op. Make sure you have some super yummy junk food for them. And we'll go from there... let us know how that first meet up goes and we'll continue from that.
I want to add, you are so awesome for not giving up on your rats or wanting to keep them separated for good because of this hiccup in their relationship.

 

[veggies]

Yes, the vet will do a full checkup. The neuter was originally scheduled for last Wednesday but after getting a check-up, the vet thought he was a little sneezy and wanted him on abs for a week before the surgery. Basil has had recurrent, mild URIs his entire life but it's never made him aggressive.

Also, there has been a move. I'm a college student and go back between my school apartment and my parent's home every three months or so, and the rats have always traveled with me very well. They are familiar with both places. We got back to my school last Friday, and the big fight was on Sunday. Also, one of my roommates has a new dog, but she's very quiet and I never let her near the rat cage. But even BEFORE we came back to school, there was a pretty big, screaming fight in which they needed to be separated for about 3 hours, so the hormonal aggression was there before the additional stressors. I also noticed he had 'wet flanks' around that time but didn't know what it was; now I understand it was his scent glands which I had never seen before. So maybe a combination of the hormones and the move and the URI flare-up made him act the way he did the other night, but I'd still like to get him neutered if it would help at all.

Yeah, I figured once Basil lost his balls Baron would understand. I've been putting Basil in a small cage while Baron is out for his play time and letting Baron approach him on his own. Basil has been acting sweetly while in the cage-- no puffing, no chattering, just sniffing. But now that Baron got up the gumption to walk up to him, he's the one that's been baring his teeth! :gaah: I guess we won't really know how they'll act until they're introduced for real and can figure out who's the boss again, so 3-4 days after the neuter I will update here.

Thanks for the kind words and advice, jo. I love my rats to pieces and I'd do anything to make sure they're safe, happy, and healthy.

 

[jorats]

I'm glad you mentioned the wet flanks...that is definitely a dominant issue. The neuter will be great for him.

 

[veggies]

So I'm still nervous about intros. I waited a bit because of some complications that Basil had with the surgery, but my vet said that tomorrow (a week since the surgery) would be a good time to try.

What signs do I watch for that are cause for stopping the intro right then and there? Baron is still scared of Basil; if he sees him moving in the other cage he runs and hides.

Also, I live in a very small apartment and don't really have a safe table to do intros on (my roommates dog is around all the time, too). I could try the tub but if they somehow get out of the tub, there are holes in the bathroom they might get into. Is there any way I could wash all the linens on my bed (their normal play area) and do an intro there?

 

[jorats]

Make sure the linens are all clean... and then proceed with the intros. The only real danger in an intro is a lunge and attack. Otherwise, everything else should be tolerated. If they get into a rat ball, you should throw a towel on them and break up the rat ball but don't stop the intro. Stop the intro on a good note, so after eating a yummy treat.

 

[veggies]

Okay. I will have a towel and gloves too at the ready. Would doing the intro in the morning when they're a bit sleepy be helpful at all? I plan to use a bit of vanilla extract on them as well.

Basil will still try to bite me if my finger smells like Baron (i.e if I've been scratching Baron) but never at any other time. Is this a bad sign?

 

[jorats]

I advise against using vanilla extract. It will simply delay the inevitable.
No, that's no necessarily a bad sign, it only means that Basil needs to get to know Baron. How long have they been separated now? It shouldn't be too bad, they've been together since birth.

 

[veggies]

Okay, I'll not use it then. They've been seperated for about 2.5 weeks but their cages are only a few inches apart.

 

[jorats]

Keep us posted.

 

[veggies]

Argh I just can't seem bring myself to do it! I got the tub all ready and plan to try tomorrow morning while the vet is still open in case worst comes to worst. But I've read several stories online of mid-life aggression and the neuter didn't end up helping and someone got injured or they had already learned the behavior and continued to shred each other. And I also read that if you don't reunite them within 48 hours after the neuter it is almost impossible for them to get back together, this can't be true right? And then I read that it takes 3 weeks for hormones to dissipate after neuters?

I'm just really scared something will happen; I spent over 600 dollars on Basil's neuter and subsequent emergency hospitalization from complications and I need more time to replenish my emergency fund. I really thought I was going to lose him and I guess I'm a little gun shy of something going all wrong with the re-intro. Can you set my mind at ease? I just want my boys to be the cuddly brothers they were just 3 weeks ago. :sad3:

 

[jorats]

It's sad that there's so much misinformation out there. Rats can take up to 3 months to lose all effects from their hormones but that doesn't mean you don't try sooner. A neuter works fast when it's aggression towards rats.
I've had males neutered at 2 years of age and did wonders for them! There's no such thing as a learned behaviour. When you get mad at someone, you don't stay mad. You don't learn the behaviour and continue to be mad. If they have a neurological issue, then yes, it will be there, but even with those rats a proper intro on neutral ground often works.

 

[veggies]

Thanks for setting me straight on that jo! Turns out I had nothing to worry about. After a few scared squeaks from Baron when Basil walked by, they were snuggled up and mutually grooming within 10 minutes. No dominance displays at all except for a few crawl-unders from both of them. After an hour I moved them to their normal play area (the bed) and they just relaxed and explored for a bit without even bothering each other.

I put them back in the seperate cages for now until I have a chance to clean the main cage so it doesn't smell like either of them. How many more outside intros should I do before placing them back in the cage together?

 

[jorats]

That is so awesome.

 

[Joanne]

That is great!!!
Do a few more intros if it makes you feel better, until nothing happens at these intros. Then when you put them both back into the big cage, do it at a time when you will be around for several hours. That way you can watch them and intervene if necessary. But things sound very promising!

 

[dspch911]

I had three boys in a CN and one was being bullied so he became a bachelor and lived that way for months. Then the two that were still living together got into a tussle - worse than usually since one lost a eye in the tussle. I then had three bachelors :gaah: However, during all this time the three always had out time together. Then last week after Jack's eye was healed up and I couldn't stand to see the three sad faces looking at me anymore I put them all back together after I scrubbed down the whole DCN - every inch of it even using a toothbrush. Before they lived in a critter nation, but when I had to separate Sebastian I put the top on it since it was originally a DCN - to try and keep the peace I have opened it up and they are living in the DCN now and so far, fingers crossed, no battle wounds and its been over a week.

Good luck with your boys and I hope it all works out for you. :cuddle:

 

[veggies]

Ahh that's crazy, poor little guy losing an eye! I hope they continue to get along nicely in their big cage together.

So I put my own boys back together in the big cage today. We had a power outage and the temperature was quickly dropping so after yet another successful outside play time, they went in the big one together. They're doing great so far. They're not snuggling up together yet (Baron seems to not trust Basil completely still) but they're not fighting and even shared dinner together. They're still trying to figure out who's alpha but in a very non-aggressive way. Definitely no puffing, stalking, or chattering. So far so good. I'll update if anything goes wrong but they're good for now. Thank you so much guys, it's such a relief!

 

[jorats]

That is really great!