Libra is sick... She is gone :'(

[lizmo1221]

Libra is about a year old. A couple of weeks ago she was treated for mites and possible pyoderma, as she had lots of tiny scabs. Turns out she had mites. Ever since she recovered, or soon after she recovered, I noticed a personality change in her. She started resting all the time in the hammock, eyes partly closed, and only coming out when I was giving veggies or if she had to drink or eat. She would even poo and (i think!) pee in the hammock. Yes, she has slowed down the past couple of months due to her age, but this is way more than that.

What happened in the last week is what really freaks me out. She has dropped 20-25g (mostly in her belly/waist area), which is scary since she was a small girl at 280g before, has even less energy, and is breathing really hard. There is no porph, no nasty breathing sounds, and she still loves her treats and rubs and still kisses me to bits. But her whole body moves when she breathes and she may be in pain, I'm not sure.

Here is a video I took tonight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o505llQnSI

I do not have a good vet here in Guelph that I am comfortable going to for anything other than a URI, and getting to Kitchener to Dr. Gerald is near impossible since I do not have a car and I work 40 hours a week.

I want to get a general idea of what I might be dealing with, and what else I should look for (Chelle said the other day that it could be CHF...), so that I can go to my vet here and see if they will know a bit more than I am giving them credit for, if I go in with some suggestions and some rat guide printouts.

Thoughts?

 

[jorats]

That looks like severe URI. I'd get her on Zithro and Baytril asap.
It could be CHF, but I don't have any experience with that so I'll let those who do like SQ and even Shelagh respond on that.
Keep her warm and hydrated.

 

[lizmo1221]

So it could be a URI even if there are no breathing noises? I had ruled that out, and now mad at myself for doing so :S

 

[SQ]

She is very ill imo.
My girls start to slow down near to two years not at age 1.
To see if it is a heart problem you will want to test dose with enalapril.
But you may want to try different combos of antibiotics first.

Feeding her mushy lab blocks and baby cereal mixed up with soy infant formula may help her to eat more.

 

[lizmo1221]

I gave her chicken and some oatmeal/ensure to try to get her to gain weight and feel better... anything else I can try?

Also, is there anything I can do before tomorrow evening, when I will be able to get her to a vet? And is tomorrow evening too late? I might be able to call in sick to take her tomorrow morning.

 

[lizmo1221]

She is very ill imo.
My girls start to slow down near to two years not at age 1.
To see if it is a heart problem you will want to test dose with enalapril.
But you may want to try different combos of antibiotics first.

What is the best combo to try right away, and in what concentrations? I don't want to waste time and money by trying something that might not work... I want to hit this thing hard right out of the gate.

 

[jorats]

Liz PM SQ and lilspaz... they both have dealt a lot with CHF.

 

[SQ]

Azithromycin needs to be given at 5 - 15 mg/454.4 g twice a day for at least 3 weeks.
I give it plus baytril for at least 6 weeks in order for it to be effective.
If antibiotics are helping then she needs to be kept on it long enough - usually at least 6 weeks.
If it doesn't help then you try a different combo.

As for heart failure, if I try several combos of antibiotics and nothing works,
then I try benezapril or enalapril (0.25 mg/454.4 g twice a day) if this helps then there is a heart problem and atenolol (1 mg/454.4g twice a day) is added. Lasix is also given as needed, starting at 1-2mg/Ib twice a day
Not all heart problems cause the heart to become enlarged. Not all heart problems can be detected on an xray.

 

[lizmo1221]

After doing some research on rat guide and talking to a few different people, including Chelle and Shelagh, I will be taking the day off work and travelling to Kitchener via rental car to see Dr. Gerald. I will get baytril/zithro if i can. I will keep everyone updated!

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

Glad to hear you are going to see Dr. Gerald, he will have a much better idea as to what is going on with Libra.

 

[PitLuvs]

I would agree to get her in asap. My G'kar looked like that, and got very bad very quick. He has CHF. That's the first thing I thought when I seen the video. Listen to what SQ says, and get the proper meds from your vet. Mine only prescribed 1 of the 3 needed... thankfully SQ was here for G'kar.

 

[lizmo1221]

Libra has stopped eating She went nuts for ensure last night and felt a lot better after having some. I suspect she was and still is dehydrated. This morning she wouldn't touch it, nor will she eat oatmeal or puff treats (it seems to exaust her to actually bite something). She had a tiny bit of chicken and some very watery baby cereal (maybe 1tsp) this morning but is now refusing everything.

Vet appt is in an hour, and cannot come soon enough.

Do you think it might be good to get some fluids into her at the vet via injection, or would that be too stressful?

 

[lilspaz68]

Libra has stopped eating She went nuts for ensure last night and felt a lot better after having some. I suspect she was and still is dehydrated. This morning she wouldn't touch it, nor will she eat oatmeal or puff treats (it seems to exaust her to actually bite something). She had a tiny bit of chicken and some very watery baby cereal (maybe 1tsp) this morning but is now refusing everything.

Vet appt is in an hour, and cannot come soon enough.

Do you think it might be good to get some fluids into her at the vet via injection, or would that be too stressful?

she's already going to be stressed, ask the vet to give her sub-q if she's dehydrated.

 

[lizmo1221]

Got back from the vet a few hours ago. In the car on the way there and at the vet she perked up quite a bit, and started eating her baby cereal/ensure again. :joy:

Met Dr. Gerald, he was very nice and knew how to handle her perfectly. She even fell asleep in his hands while he was talking to me! :giggle: She wasn't stressed much at all. He said she wasn't dehydrated (since her tongue was wet when she gave him lots of kisses!), and that he doubts it is CHF. Agreed with what I suspected, a severe URI, and put her on Doxy and Baytril for two weeks. I said I had heard that zithro was a good ab as well, and he siad he preferred doxy, but went to research the differences between the two anyway when it comes to myco flareups. Came back and said that zithro has a higher resistance probability, which satisfied me that doxy was the better choice.

She is on:
0.1 ml Baytril (25 mg/ml) twice daily
0.3 ml Doxycycline (4mg/ml) twice daily

Libra is usually gung ho about meds, and often takes them without flavouring at all! She is super picky tho today, and spit most of the meds out and let them dribble down her chin... :? Some of it got into her and she got stressed pretty quick so I took what I could get. It's better than nothing and I will try again tomorrow.

 

[jorats]

Hopefully the meds will work it's magic. You'll have to find something yummy to mask the med.

 

[Godmother]

Doxy and Baytril are both very bitter. My little Maddy is very sensitive to bitter tastes, and it took me several days before I could find a mixture that was palatable for her. When I didn't use enough sweetener, she would refuse it. When I used too much, she got sick of it before she got much down. I finally found something that worked: chicken broth (low calcium), rice baby cereal to thicken it (also low in calcium), corn syrup for sweetener, and chicken-vegetable baby food! The low calcium is because calcium inhibits absorption of Doxy.

The other rat is less sensitive, and she is happy with my usual med mixture (it includes Strawberry Nesquick for sweetener).

Good luck! There are some other good ideas on a thread about getting rats to take meds.

 

[lizmo1221]

Doxy and Baytril are both very bitter. My little Maddy is very sensitive to bitter tastes, and it took me several days before I could find a mixture that was palatable for her. When I didn't use enough sweetener, she would refuse it. When I used too much, she got sick of it before she got much down. I finally found something that worked: chicken broth (low calcium), rice baby cereal to thicken it (also low in calcium), corn syrup for sweetener, and chicken-vegetable baby food! The low calcium is because calcium inhibits absorption of Doxy.

The other rat is less sensitive, and she is happy with my usual med mixture (it includes Strawberry Nesquick for sweetener).

Good luck! There are some other good ideas on a thread about getting rats to take meds.

Thank you for the suggestions. A few things concern me tho:

The drugs are already mixed with strawberry flavouring from the vet. It is still clear/cloudy tho, not pink like it would be with Nesquick.

Libra is far from sensitive about bitter things. She was on baytril in the summer for a minor URI after I moved, and she would take it straight (ie, mixed with nothing) like it was pure gold. She was ravenous! When Virgo was on baytril/doxy for a ear infection, I let the other two lick the syringes after she was done to get them used to it (for them to learn syringes werent bad), and again, Libra loved the taste of the meds mixed with the flavouring (exactly the same mixtures I have now).

So, I think it has more to do with stress and lack of appetite than taste. She is on again off again with what I give her to eat (mostly off again ). It seems like she has to be in the mood to eat anything, even super yummy stuff like bits of chicken. So, I don't want to mix up an huge concoction which will mean she has to eat the entire thing to get her full dose of meds, when she wont even lick a tiny bit of baby cereal off my finger most times. I don' want to increase the volume of what she has to eat from 0.4ml to 5ml or whatever it would be.

I hate to say it, but I have to figure out a way to force the meds into her without putting too much pressure on her lungs by holding her incorrectly, and so she can't or wont spit it out for those times when her appetite is preventing her from taking the meds. And, of course I want her to get her full dosage so she can get better, and not have to struggle with her for an hour to do it (which I would do in the evenings no problem, but the mornings can be tough since I'm on a schedule to get to work).

So worrying and frustrating to have all this happen :gaah:

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

You are much better off finding something to mix the meds with so she will take them willingly. Trying to force meds into stubborn rats just leads to wasted meds and sticky rats (speaking from experience).

 

[victoria]

You are much better off finding something to mix the meds with so she will take them willingly. Trying to force meds into stubborn rats just leads to wasted meds and sticky rats (speaking from experience).

I agree. I think Godmother was not suggesting you find the right mix for the entire bottle of abs, but a mix you could mix her doses with each time you need to give them. What worked for me (for Batryl and Doxy) was apple sauce, PB, honey, and canola oil. Godmother also has a really good point, if you make the mix too sweet they will get sick of it before they finish their dose. I try to use the smallest amount of mix necessary to mask the meds, that way they're less likely to get full too soon. Another good idea I heard once was to give treats via syringes when they are young so that when they are sick and need meds they think they are getting a treat. Don't forget probiotics either, they will prevent upset stomachs (which make the rats more likely to refuse meds) and the good bacteria may crowd out the bad.

 

[Rachael]

You are much better off finding something to mix the meds with so she will take them willingly. Trying to force meds into stubborn rats just leads to wasted meds and sticky rats (speaking from experience).

I agree, and I have had to try and syringe rats that won't take their meds in food before, and they've ended up extremely stressed out and gasping for breath - if you can get her to take it in food, then do.