It may not be a UTI after all...

[Bundyrats]

Hi,

Sheba has been on Bactrim twice daily and Metacam injectable daily since last Friday for, at that stage we didn't know what. She has got a little better but not much. I am still feeding her from a syringe and she's only eating the smallest amounts of solids. I talked to my vet today and he is still not convinced that it is a UTI, he seems to think there is something else going on. She seemed to improve (only slightly) on the Saturday after her first injection and antibiotic dose and he said it's more likely that this is from the Metacam doing it's thing rather than the Bactrim.
I may be back to square one. :sad3:
He said to take her off the Metacam from tonight (day 7) and see how she goes and then take her off the Bactrim at day 10. If she goes downhill, then put her back on both again. He also doesn't want to keep her on Metaman for long, 10 days at the most.
But I can't see this ending well, if we don't even know what's wrong with her and she doesn't get better, I don't know what else to do.

 

[lilspaz68]

Hi,

Sheba has been on Bactrim twice daily and Metacam injectable daily since last Friday for, at that stage we didn't know what. She has got a little better but not much. I am still feeding her from a syringe and she's only eating the smallest amounts of solids. I talked to my vet today and he is still not convinced that it is a UTI, he seems to think there is something else going on. She seemed to improve (only slightly) on the Saturday after her first injection and antibiotic dose and he said it's more likely that this is from the Metacam doing it's thing rather than the Bactrim.
I may be back to square one. :sad3:
He said to take her off the Metacam from tonight (day 7) and see how she goes and then take her off the Bactrim at day 10. If she goes downhill, then put her back on both again. He also doesn't want to keep her on Metaman for long, 10 days at the most.
But I can't see this ending well, if we don't even know what's wrong with her and she doesn't get better, I don't know what else to do.

OK so back to her symptoms...what is happening right now? Everything you see, or even think. Is she still panicked running?

 

[Bundyrats]

No, she hasn't done that all week, so I wondering if it was the Metcam just taking away any pain. Occasionally, I noticed that her right front paw was in a little fist so I was thinking PT but from what I've read on this forum there should be other symptoms which I don't think she has. Her symptons are mainly just lethary and breathing fast sometimes (there's no noises or snuffles). About 2 weeks ago, I fed her and I swear her feet turned blue. When I feed her, it's like it takes a lot out of her. Like her body is struggling to process the food as though she's just run a marathon. We're booked in to see another vet tomorrow morning. I did the ring around today to get a second opinion and this vet apparently has a lot of experience with mice and rats. I really hope so because it's my last chance.

 

[lilspaz68]

No, she hasn't done that all week, so I wondering if it was the Metcam just taking away any pain. Occasionally, I noticed that her right front paw was in a little fist so I was thinking PT but from what I've read on this forum there should be other symptoms which I don't think she has. Her symptons are mainly just lethary and breathing fast sometimes (there's no noises or snuffles). About 2 weeks ago, I fed her and I swear her feet turned blue. When I feed her, it's like it takes a lot out of her. Like her body is struggling to process the food as though she's just run a marathon. We're booked in to see another vet tomorrow morning. I did the ring around today to get a second opinion and this vet apparently has a lot of experience with mice and rats. I really hope so because it's my last chance.

Are her feet and tail cooler than they should be? Is her breathing hard and does she breathe through her abdomen?

I would ask the new vet to check her heart if possible.

 

[Bundyrats]

Her feet and tail seem normal temperature. Her abdomen is sucking in and out quite quickly at times, if that is what you mean by abdomen breathing? The vet has always said that her heart has sounded consistent, it was one of things he considered could be the problem. But again, he thinks it's the liver. Which could be why after she eats, she looked bombed out because her liver is processing all of the toxins maybe.

 

[victoria]

If the Metacam is helping and she's improved a little on antibiotics, it really doesn't sound like it's her liver. If you can get a second opinion at all, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Bundyrats]

I've seen the new vet and he thinks it's respiratory. My normal vet was pretty sure that it wasn't but it would explain the blue feet, the crazy moments (from lack of oxygen) and the laboured breathing. He gave her a concentrated dose of doxy to be taken daily. If she is not better by Monday, I realise that I will have to PTS her. She has been through so much. Fingers crossed that she improves in the next 24-48 hours.

 

[lilspaz68]

I've seen the new vet and he thinks it's respiratory. My normal vet was pretty sure that it wasn't but it would explain the blue feet, the crazy moments (from lack of oxygen) and the laboured breathing. He gave her a concentrated dose of doxy to be taken daily. If she is not better by Monday, I realise that I will have to PTS her. She has been through so much. Fingers crossed that she improves in the next 24-48 hours.

Doxy once a day? Do you still have any other antibiotic on hand, like the baytril?

 

[Dazzle87]

What is the dose of the doxy, the mg/ml, and your rats weight? Once a day isn't enough even if it is a larger dose, as it is metabolized quickly.

 

[Bundyrats]

It's Vibravet cat paste, 100mg/g. Using the rat guide I worked out that she should have 3.09mg based on her weight of 280g daily, which is 0.03 of a gram. So the dose that the vet told me to give her (0.25g) is almost 9 times stronger than what she should have. I freaked out last night and called him this morning to ask about his calculations and he kind of said well yeh, it's a very strong drug, just give her a mouthful of it. So this morning (her second dose), I squirted the whole 0.25g and then tried to split it into 8 sections - we're talking about a small dribble here - and it turns out that it is just a mouthful.
But if anyone has time, I would grateful if you could double check my calculations. I started with 2.5mg/lb twice daily (per rat med guide), then worked it out on kg and once daily as per his directions.
I do have Baytril on hand, should I be giving her that too? We've stopped the Bactrim and Metacam and this morning, I have to say, she seems a little better - hopefully the doxy is my miracle cure.

 

[SQ]

Doxy + baytril twice a day is a combo that often helps. If it does, you will want to keep her on it for at least 6 weeks.

Zithro + baytril twice a day is a combo you might want to try if what you are doing doesn't help.

Heart problems cause respir problems.
You can test dose to see if there is an underlying heart problem.

 

[Bundyrats]

Thanks SQ. This is probably a silly question but what do you mean by test dose?

 

[Dazzle87]

I'm confused, how do you measure out .something of a gram of the paste?

A test dose means you give heart meds, if they improve on them, you keep them on them, otherwise you continue with antibiotics.

 

[Bundyrats]

It comes in a syringe-like tube with notches down the side. So you as you squirt, it comes out and then the notch stop it from going any further. Then you snap off the notch for the next dose and squeeze until you get to the next notch. Each notch is 0.25g. It's a 2.5g tube with 10 notches. Hppe that makes sense....

 

[Dazzle87]

Ahh, okay, I get it now. I was imagining little jewlers scales...hahaha.

I'd do the math right now but I'm tired and don't want to mess up .

ETA: A quick look approximating it sounds like you did the math right. Next time ask for pills or suspension, trying to split a dose like that is crazy.

 

[SQ]

If the antibiotics don't work, I would test dose with enalapril (0.25 mg/454.4g twice a day) to see if she has a heart problem. Enalapril is safe to test dose with.
If it helps, then atenolol (1 mg/454.4 g twice a day) and lasix (as needed, starting dose usually 1-2 mg/454.4g twice a day) are added.
Digoxin is added if the heart is enlarged as seen on an xray

(dose info taken from the Rat Health Care book, http://www.ratfanclub.org)

 

[Bundyrats]

Ok but my vet was very reluctant to give any heart meds so I hope the Doxy is the answer and that it was resp all along. Thanks all.

 

[lilspaz68]

I would definitely add in the baytril with your doxy. The combo is very effective, and doxy alone I find is a "weak" drug especially for this situation, no matter how concentrated it is.

 

[Bundyrats]

Ok but what about the fact that it didn't work last time? I used Baytril for a week and it made no difference to her. Do you think it would be more potent when in use with Doxy? I will certainly give it a try though.

 

[SQ]

Baytril + doxy is better then either alone, as are other combos
such as zithro + baytril