Is there any hope left? Severe weight loss + other problems.

[Everex]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to come here and get the advice of people with the most experience with rats, because I'm not trusting my vet right now.

We have a male rat named Gideon that is having several health problems. Over the past few weeks his health has declined quickly and severely.

It all started a few months ago when he broke his foot. We saw the vet for that and for mites. He went on a round of antibiotics for his foot (not sure of the name) and after that he developed a URI. When we went back for the recheck, one month after the initial visit, he was worse. The doctor then put him on a different set of antibiotics for his URI.

Over the past few weeks he has become shaky and uncoordinated. He falls over and tends to walk backwards. He also started losing weight and was unable to eat on his own. The vet said that his teeth were occluded and would have to be clipped. After losing about 40 grams (very quickly) the vet recommended we put him on a baby food diet. We have been feeding him about 20ccs of baby food (vet's recommendation) every day and he still lost 60 more grams in a week.

He has also developed a few genital issues. At first his penis would become erect and he could not get it to go back in without assistance from us. We were able to get it back in with sugar on the penis and sheath. But yesterday he developed another problem. He gets a yellow, foul smelling plug blocking his penis. We are having to remove it several times a day. If we didn't he would be unable to urinate.

Starting this past Monday he is currently on Baytril, and the vet wants to see him back in 2 weeks. I'm concerned that his quality of life has become too low to continue treatment. I'm afraid that treatment isn't going to help. The vet hasn't mentioned euthanasia and is even talking about surgery to remove his teeth (if we can get him stable enough). I don't know if I trust him, but I also don't know if there is still a chance for our boy, Gideon.

I'm sorry for the long post, and I'm also sorry if this isn't really an emergency, but I'm really concerned and have no idea what to do. Do any of you think that euthanasia is necessary at this point or is there still a chance for Gideon?
We also don't know how old he is. He was fully grown when we got him. He was a feeder.

 

[SQ]

Pictures would help. So would a video if you can take one.

Removing his teeth is a bad idea unless he is very healthy and your vet is very very experienced at removing rats teeth and has done this sucessfully many times. Even if he survived the surgery, if even a microscopic bit of the root is left behind the tooth will regrow, and not always in the correct direction ... it might grow up into his brain.
If his front teeth are crooked, they can be trimmed by the vet regularily or you can learn to do it yourself.

Is he able to eat?
If he has a difficult time with lab blocks,
- you can add cold water to the blocks and let them sit over night to make mush ... and add a couple of drops of olive oil to the mush as well.
- You can also give him soy infant formula mixed up with baby cereal and a couple of drops of olive oil (probaby the best thing if he can not eat by himself).
- baby food

Good combos to try are batril + doxy, baytril + zithro, baytril + clavamox, and there are a few other combos that Shelagh has used as well. Sometimes vets underdose so if ypu know his weight and the strength os the meds (mg/ml) someone can check to see if the amount is ok.

Is Gideon still unable to eat on his own?
Can he grasp food? Can you hand him a cheerio and see how he holds it and what he does?
Is he confused?

He may have pt (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2288), a brain tumour, or have had a stroke or something else. If so the treatment is predisone + antibiotics.
What does the vet say the problem is?
Some people treat pt and brain tumours, others choose not to as if treatment works it does not cure the rattie, only relieves the symptoms for awhile.
Some people treat pt with Bromocriptine. If it works it treats the tumour, not just the symptoms.
Please see: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=24452&hilit=bromo
and viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28917&hilit=bromo

You might also have the vet test dose by giving him enalapril (0.25 mg/454.4g twice a day) to see if he has a heart problem. Enalapril is safe to test dose with.
If it helps, then atenolol (1 mg/454.4 g twice a day) and lasix (as needed, starting dose usually 1-2 mg/454.4g twice a day) are added.
Digoxin is added if the heart is enlarged as seen on an xray (dose info taken from the Rat Health Care book, http://www.ratfanclub.org)

He is likely getting the penis plugs because he is too ill to keep himself clean.
So you need to do that for him. viewtopic.php?f=26&t=171

If Gideon has to be put to sleep, please read: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9582

 

[Everex]

Well, the vet has never really told us what he thinks the problem is. He tends to just dance around the subject and prescribe random meds. So far he's been on doxy and baytril, and maybe one other, I'm not 100% sure. But he's never been on a combo of any meds.

I honestly think this vet isn't familiar enough with rats to have any idea what to do. He knows rabbits and is listed at the office as the "pocket pet vet" but I think that's a load of bull. We have a severe shortage of exotic vets here in Rock Hill.

Gideon does try to eat on his own (lab blocks, seed mix, etc) but isn't able to do more than nibble a little. We're currently feeding him baby food though a syringe 4-5 times a day. He goes crazy for it. So he definitely has an appetite, he is just unable to feed himself sufficiently. But even with the baby food, he is still losing weight rapidly.
He is fortunately still drinking water on his own. He's able to shakily use the water bottle. Everything he does is shaky. Sometimes he'll try to go down to the lower level of the cage and he'll just end up rolling down the ramp. His behavior reminds me a lot of the way my mom's dog acted after she had a stroke.
The vet said it might be an inner ear problem. I asked if it could be neurological but he just brushed it off.

I will try to post some before/after pictures and possibly a video.

Oh, and the vet has never preformed tooth removal on a rat. Only on rabbits. I think it's a little extreme since we are able to clip his teeth. But to be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong with his teeth. They're not crooked that I can see. I just think he doesn't have the energy to be able to maintain them. He's not a big chewer anyway, but he used to brux a lot. He's not really able to anymore.

 

[maria-mar]

I would definitely get a second opinion from another vet. Maybe someone here can recommend a good rat vet in your area?
And pretty fast! Once a rat starts to lose weight, it just gets harder and harder to make it better.

 

[Everex]

I agree. We have an appointment on Monday with a different vet. She seems to know her stuff as far as exotics go. We really hope she can help.

 

[maria-mar]

Good luck!...

 

[jorats]

How old is Gideon?
Is he not eating on his own due to overgrown teeth? When he has them trimmed, can he eat on his own? Ask the vet to trim them right down to the gum line, that will give him some time before it needs to be trimmed again. I would definitely have mushed up blocks and not so much baby food. It doesn't have the nutrients a rat needs. Ensure or Boost would be better. Or you could mix the mushed up blocks into the baby food.
The plug shouldn't stop the rat from urinating. It does seem like it to us but I've seen rats urinate with huge plugs. It does sound like your boy is struggling, lots of issues... hopefully the second vet will be able be more precise, although, many exotic vet also go through a bunch of meds in hopes that one will help. I too recommend a combo. My fav is the baytril and zithro combo.

 

[maria-mar]

Jo, i thought about overgrown teeth but didn't even mention it cause it seemed so obvious that the vet would check that...
My vet always checks teeth, even if i come there with an unrelated issue.

 

[Aida]

I'm crossing all my fingers and toes for your poor little guy! Keep us informed.

And if he's losing weight, maybe more of the baby food...?

 

[SQ]

The recomended treatment for an inner ear infection is predisone + either clorpalm or a baytril + clavamox combo.
Same treatment as for a brain tumor, pt or a stroke.

You need to check to see if he is dehydrated as he probably isn't able to drink enough water.
If he is you will need to hydrate him asap and keep him hydrated.
Do a skin pinch test by pinch the skin on the back of his neck between two finger, pull it up and let go. If the skin quickly snaps back into place, he is likely fine, otherwise he is dehydrated.
To give sub-Q fluids, please see: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6235
For oral rehydration give pedialite from the drug store or make a homemade rehydration solution viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11058

Personally, I would suggest syringe feeding him soy infant formula (or ensure or boast) thickened with baby cereal as often as possible .... at least 5 or more times a day

What is the strenght of the baytril he is on? How much does he weigh?
Could you see if the vet you have been taking him to will call in a perscription for azithromycin to a drugstore for you?
That way you could start him on a combo now instead of hoping he makes it through the weekend until he sees the vet on Monday.

 

[lilspaz68]

I take it the "broken" foot was really a sprain?
How old is Gideon? Are his teeth maloccluded (growing crookedly/unevenly)?

So his symptoms are a URI (how bad is his breathing?), and now he's frail and wobbly? Does he push his front legs out stiffly in front of him? Does he seem confused about where things are, Does he sit with his hind feet up underneath him like a tripod?

If you offer him a cheerio is he able to grasp it with both front paws?

 

[Everex]

He's not really having many upper respiratory symptoms anymore. It's mostly his shakiness and not being able to balance or walk straight. He falls over and walks very similar to someone who's inebriated.

The vet said that his teeth were maloccluded and that they would need to be cut often. We're doing that at home.

We have no idea how old he is. He was full grown when we got him. We estimate his age to be about 2 years.

I'll check to see if he's dehydrated and try some pedialite if he is. We'll also try to soy formula/baby cereal instead of baby food. And maybe softening and mushing up some of his lab blocks. And I'll talk to the vet about putting him on a combination of meds.

 

[lilspaz68]

is he bruxxing more than usual? This can cause crooked teeth when they grind down unevenly.

Seriously, offer him a cheerio and see if he reacts like Calla did pre-treatment. If its pituitary tumour you can do a short term treatment, but antibiotics won't help on their own, you would need a steroid.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8652&hilit=calla

 

[jorats]

It sounds like pituitary tumour... and he's at the right age for it. That would account for the shakiness, off balance, being very hungry, the lack of grooming himself.
But... you can still treat for inner ear infections since those symptoms are the same as well.

 

[Everex]

Unfortunately, we had to end Gideon's suffering today. He had a seizure so we rushed him to the vet and we came to the decision that it was in his best interest to be euthanized.

I just hate that he had to go through all of that suffering, but he was very loved and nurtured from the moment he came to live with us.

Thank you everyone for all of your suggestions. I'll keep them in mind for the future if I ever encounter anything like this again, and they might just save a life.

 

[mustloverats]

I am so sorry about Gideon, he seems like he was a wonderful boy.

 

[mustloverats]

I am so sorry about Gideon, he seems like he was a wonderful boy.

 

[lilspaz68]

Oh very sorry to hear about your boy. Did you like the other vet at least?

 

[Aida]

Oh my god, I am so so sorry. >_< </3

 

[maria-mar]

I'm so sorry