introduction difficulties!

[katheeve]

hello rat lovers
i joined this forum to seek good advice from other more experienced rat owners with my rats Freida (6 months) and her brand new cage mate Esme (4 months).
I bought Freida from petsmart along with her sister Dora in early September. They were a great pair but unfortunately Dora died in early November. I couldn't get an exact answer from the vet as to what caused her death, but she informed me that careless breeding can often lead to diseases and defects that can affect rats even from birth. The vet also checked out Freida and said she looked healthy and gave her 10-days worth of antibiotics just to be safe.
I decided to get another rat from Freida on thanksgiving. I bought a young rat from petsmart again (taking a chance) and after about two days, they got along quite well. Again tragedy hit and I found the little one dead after leaving the room where i keep theyre cage for only an hour. I inspected her body and found no bite marks or even messed-up fur that could indicate foul-play from Freida.
Obviously after experiencing two deaths in such a short period of time I was very upset and felt incredibly guilty. I continued to take great care of Freida and even began training her to recognize her name and come when i call. Even though I was nervous, i decided to put my feelings aside and get ANOTHER cagemate for Freida for her well-being.
This is where i'm having problems. I have tried to introduce Esme and Freida on neutral ground and then cautiously on my bed (where Freida is free to roam) but these two are difficult. In the past Freida would flip and pin the newcomer then back off a few times before they were grooming and sleeping together. This time around, Freida is being aggressive and little Esme shows no signs of submission.
Does anyone have any advice?

 

[Moon]

What *exactly* are they doing that makes you say Frieda is being aggressive and Esme is not backing off?

It could be as simple as moving back to more neutral territory for them. If you are doing intros on the bed and Frieda gets free roam there, that could be causing problems.

You may also need to rule out a physical issue on Frieda's part, especially something like external parasites that very often make rats more agitated than they would be otherwise.

If you're able to take a video of an introduction session between the two and load it on youtube or something, that could help a lot.

 

[jorats]

Wow, that is very scary having two young deaths like that. Have you contacted Petsmart to alert them to the sudden deaths?
At their current age, intros should be pretty simple. They should be jumping right into playing unless Freida has gone through a change with the losses but that can be worked on. Like Moon asked, what exactly is the behaviour that is worrying you?
I would also do a mite treatment just to be on the safe side on both girls. Are they in two separate cage?

 

[katheeve]

i have been keeping the introductions in the bathtub, a place that freida never plays, and there has been some progress, but it has been kind of slow.
originally they fought like three times during the fifteen minutes i would put them in the tub. i quickly broke it up with a spray bottle. now after two days of three fifteen minute sessions, the fighting has definitely gone down, but i'm still pretty worried. esme has bald spots because freida will tear out fur.
freida will walk towards esme sideways then nip at her feet or sides while esme will stand upright with her hands up in a boxing position. then if i dont break it up immediately a rat-fighting-ball will break out with much screaming.
when they aren't fighting, they sniff eachother and esme will actually seek freida out. ive seen freida power groom esme and she actually allowed esme to groom her for a little bit this morning without any protest, but i can still sense the tension between them.
when i say esme won't back down, i mean that when freida tries to get her on her side to establish her dominance, she won't allow it and fight back. she did this every time the first day but since then i've seen her submit and allow herself to be turned over.
earlier today they were both in the tub for fifteen minutes with some success. freida was able to flip esme three times without protest then backed away and esme groomed freida with only one short scuffle at the very end.
and yes right now i'm keeping them in separate cages, occasionally switching them.
ARE THEY EVER GOING TO GET ALONG?

 

[Moon]

It sounds like you are already making progress! Esme allowing herself to be flipped is kind of a big deal.

 

[jorats]

It is sounding better and better. Can you make your intros a little longer, at least 30 minutes? You need to get beyond the "hi, who are you, let me check you out" to them sharing the space. Add something yummy to eat in the tub as well.

 

[katheeve]

okay i just did another introduction. i give treats but esme is a little apprehensive and only sometimes takes treats from my hands. often times freida steals them from her.
i took some videos. they fought only once today and i broke it up quickly. but other than that nothing much happened. i think if they jut hated each other they wouldn't just coexist in the tub the way they do, doing their own thing, occasionally sniffing each other but mostly keeping to themselves.
i'll try to upload the videos to youtube and put the url here.
thank you all for the advice and encouragement. i've been pretty stressed about this. i really want to find freida a forever friend.

 

[Moon]

Don't offer them treats they need to hold to eat. Something delicious and liquid-y that'll keep them near each other to eat is what you want.

 

[katheeve]

their first 30 minute session just ended. there was one fight in the beginning (esme losing more fur) but after that no screaming. i sprinkled some rice krispies in the tub and they ate them near eachother which i was happy about. freida would come by and sniff esme and esme would let her do whatever she wanted.
right now i switched their cages, keeping them close to eachother. sometimes when freida and esme look at eachother through the cages and esme is in the bigger cage (where freida has been living since forever), freida gets pretty pissed. should i not be switching them?

 

[jorats]

Switching them is fine, you're doing great, keep at it.

 

[katheeve]

how can i tell if freida or esme have mites?

 

[jorats]

You might see little scabs on one or on both of the girls. You also see them scratching each other more and even be more grumpy.

 

[Joanne]

Good luck! It sounds like you are on the right track and making progress. Don't put a specific time limit on getting them together. Some rats, as you have experienced, get together right away. Others can take weeks. So don't get discouraged!

 

[katheeve]

OMG huge progress!!!!!
i put them in the the tub for their usual half hour session and i quickly realized FREIDA'S IN HEAT! and esme happily satisfied her whatever you want to call it! esme humped freida like no other and freida loved it! they didn fight once so i decided to move them to another area to see if i could have the same success. i moved them to my bed and again! no fighting! a few days ago i dropped them on my bed a an ugly fight broke out in seconds. it was so great to see! my room is rat proofed and they were doing so well that i left esme down to explore with freida. there was only a little scuffle when esme started climbing on freidas cage. there in separate cages now. i think i'm going to wait to see if i can repeat this success tomorrow when freida's not in heat before i try to move them in the cage together.

thank you everyone for all the encouragement!

 

[SQ]

Treat with revolution for mites as suggested by jorats.

Make sure they are ok together for extended periods of time in a neutral area (bathtub),
then make sure they are ok together for extended periods of time in a non neutral area (such as your bed).
Once they are ok together for at least 30 min s or longer in a nonneutral place several different times,
then scrub out a large cage, clean everything that goes into the cage so that it does not smell like either rat and rearrange the cage so it is not anyone's territory.
Then put them into the same cage and keep a close eye on them for the next 8 to 12 hours.

 

[jorats]

When a female is in heat it can go either way. Good to hear that it went well. But still give a few more days. When there's a rat in heat you might not get their usual behavior.