Intro behaviour question--videos added

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hprats

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Well, I'm on my 6th intro attempt (and I've only had a total of 6 rats!) and I saw a new behaviour I don't understand.

Peter kept poking his nose into Fred's shoulder/neck, not roughly, and not grooming. Just poking and then resting there. They rested like that for a couple minutes actually, and Fred started bruxing and boggling, but didn't puff up or seem upset. Is this a friendly thing, a dominance thing or what? Fred also did some hard grooming to Peter, and Peter accepted it calmly.

I'm re-introducing the neutered Fred to my group of 4 boys. He and Peter used to fight, so they've both been neutered. Right now I'm just doing Fred-Peter and Albus because it's easier on me without the babies in the mix, and I wanted to see if Fred's neuter has taken effect.

I think it has. He handled the situation very well. Albus was very nosy as he was with the intro to the babies too, sticking his nose right into Fred's behind a lot, and running under him, siddling next to him when while he ate. The intro only lasted 15 minutes or so, because I didn't want any of them to get too worked up. Once I get them to stay together for an hour without fighting (not that there were any fights today, Fred just started to seem agitated), I'll add the babies (really not babies anymore, but still smaller than my big boys). I'll try and get some video next time

I really want to get Fred in with them soon. He's been alone for far too long, and he keeps getting respiratory infections that keep coming back, and he doesn't even enjoy playing in the rat room...he likes to sit with me, but he doesn't want to explore or run through tubes or climb anything. If I leave him alone in the rat room for even 5 minutes, I'll come back to him sitting in his cage in a hammock. I'm worried that being alone is making him depressed and keeping him sick.

I'm ordering them a critter nation this week. When I put them together, it'll be in an all-new cage, which I'm hoping will help them adjust to the new group.
 
Sounds like he wanted the other rat to groom him. I see that with males who put their head under the other rats. The ones I seen do it were not a major meanie but rather wanted the acceptance from the other rats.
 
Hmm, I know what you mean about poking it *under* the other rat's head, but this was more just into the side of the neck. It was almost like he was almost grooming fred, but didn't want to go quite that far yet, hahaha. I'll try and get some video today.
 
he could be testing the waters so to speak. Maybe he wants to groom him but isnt sure how he will react. I have had some do that to almost comfort some scared rats too.
 
It could be he was testing the waters or he genuinely needed to be near his good energy.
I've had rats do that to my Gera. Gera had amazing energy and other rats would be drawn to him.
 
So I did another intro last night...it ended really well.

There was a fight though...
This video puts together clips of the 30 minutes up to te fight, and at the end you can see Fred bite Albus, starting the fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hmYtxc5oYE (sorry for the ridiculous music in the background (well, ridiculous because it doesn't fit the scene at all), but the sound was really annoying on the original video)
I think albus was being very nosy again though...you can kind of see it in the video...the video starts with the behaviour I was asking about with Peter's nose in Fred's fur.

I split up the fight, removed Fred and then waited for them to calm down and then stuck him back in and gave them each a chocolate chip.

Here is how the intro ended:

IMG_20120527_223949.jpg

I find it so interesting that Albus is so fat when none of the others are and they all eat the same foods and have the same amount of exercise time.
 
The black rat looks just a bit unsure but it doesnt seem to affect him much. It isnt making him mean which is good. The little hooded guy is a confident little bugger. Is he the new one? The Pew looks like he is testing the new guy. He goes up to him at the end of that 2nd and puffs up a bit. IT really looks to me that the PEW was a big cocky with him which is what made him get bit. He was kinda stand off if. Some rats will nip to try and get another rat in line. You can see in the first video the pew is anticipating something or thinking about it. He kinda side steps will looking like the stay puff marshmallow man LOL
 
Yep, the hooded boy is Fred, the new one. Confident is definitely accurate for him...he's really overconfident in every way, which has lead to him getting way more injuries than all my other boys combined.

So it would probably help if I were to use my hand to dominate Fred when he's getting all puffy and cocky then?

I can't believe how much Peter (the black boy) has chilled out. He used to be waaay more aggressive and just in everyone's business, way more than Albus was. When I tried to do intros before the neuters, Albus was just relaxing with Neville all the time while Peter and Fred would get into trouble.

The other part I was wondering about was at minute 1:02. Is Fred kind of demanding grooming from Peter here, but Peter is refusing?
 
What Fred was doing is a mount and hard groom, not a bite but Albus being alpha didn't allow it and that turned into a fight. I would be putting my hand over Albus. He's the one with the big issues here.
When Fred goes to Peter, he is asking to be groomed and respected. At one point, he passes over Peter's head and probably peed on him too. Claiming him. Which I bet that got Albus upset too.
 
Oh, okay. Well, luckily they seem to have worked that out on their own. Not sure if that means Fred accepted Albus as Alpha or if Albus just accepted Fred challenging him or what, but there were no fights between them yesterday. In fact they seemed pretty happy together.

IMG_20120528_221702%255B1%255D.jpg


Everything went so well that after 30 relaxed minutes in the tub, I brought in the 4 month old brothers. At first Fred charged at them in a way I didn't like so I pulled him out and rubbed his belly. I still hadn't read what Jo said about him not needing the dominating, and I didn't want to risk a fight when everything was going so well. When I put him back in, he was more cautious about approaching the babies, but I think Peter and Albus helped with that too.

at 0:37 of the video, you can see what happened immediately after I put Fred back in the tub with the other four. Peter and Albus kind of herded him into the corner, and Peter put his paws on Fred's back. He holds Fred down while Harry sniffs him, and Fred allows it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XydYjY8IVL0

After over an hour in the tub, I put them all onto the couch. All of my rats have had out-time on that couch this week, using the same sheets covering it. They were all still really happy and after an hour there, they ended up cuddled together in one corner. :joy:

I'm really happy with this. My double critter nation is coming tomorrow :dance: , and I'd love to use the weekend to try them all in it, so I can observe them for 48 hours straight. Plus I felt terrible separating them after their really long intro last night. It was sad to put Fred back in his own cage, but I know they need a bit more time.
 
Peter is such an awesome rat. Fred loves him.
Dominating Fred certainly won't hurt him and in fact, might eve reassure him so you did good. You are moving your intros along pretty fast so don't get discouraged if you need to take a step back. Sometimes rats can take it one day and another day is different but that's ok, you just gotta go a little slower when that happens. That's the beauty with rats, they tell you when it's too fast or when they need more time.
Great video. I love Peter.
 
:heart: Thanks. Everyone loves Peter. He's great with the little ones too, letting the, flip him and play fighting. Even my boyfriend has forgiven him for the huge bite he gave him.

They are definitely moving along way faster than I expected, but I think living in the same cage for over a year, separated by only wire, coroplast, and fleece, helped the situation a lot. They've also shared the same play area for that time (though not together) and I never stopped moving items between their cages. Also, Albus was always the least dominating rat of the four I had before (Albus, Peter, Fred, and Neville), and he's the only grown unaltered rat of the bunch.

Peter and Fred were sooo close before their fighting started. During out-time they were always together, and were almost always together in the cage too. I really regret putting off their neuters so long, but I was scared and things were working well when it was Albus and Peter and Fred and Neville.

Yesterday went amazingly well. They spent hours together on the couch, and there was nothing but love from any of them.

The critter nation came, and somehow I got it put together (ahh! it was tough!). I set it up with all new, never used stuff, except for one piece of flannel that's been with them through all the intro sessions. They're all in it now, though only the upper section. They're right next to me and I keep checking every few seconds to make sure everyone is happy and relaxed. I don't plan of having them sleep in it (I need to get some sleep tonight!), but I figured they might as well get used to it while I can keep an eye on them. Since it's all new stuff, it's basically neutral ground, though I wanted to see how they reacted to the enclosed space...especially one that's obviously a cage with shelves, a hammock, and a sputnik (their first, no one has figured it out yet).

After a lot of exploring, Fred and Albus settled together on a shelf. Albus is grooming Fred in the corner of it right now.

IMAG0316.jpg


Fred took his turn grooming Albus right after (a couple minutes after the last picture).
IMAG0317.jpg


This post has taken forever to write, because I keep checking on them every few seconds. And they're just so cute. Fred and Peter are cuddled up together. And omg I just looked over and saw Harry peeking out of the sputnik at me. He is too freaking cute.

Ahhh, and Fred just tried to squish into the sputnik with Albus...hahahah, they don't really fit, but he's pretty determined.

IMAG0325.jpg

IMAG0331.jpg


Ahh, now I'm regretting this. I don't know if I'll be able to take Fred out of that lovefest. Maybe I won't be getting any sleep tonight after all...he's now sleeping in a ratpile with Peter and Harry. Oh well, I have 7 hours until bedtime.
 
I was wrong, they can definitely fit...the three grown rats are in their now, Albus, Peter, and Fred. Not sure how they can stand it hahaha there's zero breathing room.

I love it, the sputnik is such a hit. Peter left and in five seconds Remus was climbing in to take his place.
 
^Thanks! It did go way better than I could have imagined, hehe.

hopefloats said:
Pictures or it didn't happen :)

Well, since you asked :lol:
I did get a couple pictures, but because they were so squished, I don't think they're very good ones, haha.

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I wanted to see if my dog liked it...
IMAG0337.jpg

She didn't.
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