increasing agression...

[I_Monster]

Okay, sorry if contextual explanations get long winded...

So I've got three rats, Champ, had first, Gwen, got to be Champ's companion, Josi, someone gave me as a hand-me-down because I had rats and they didn't want her anymore.

Champ was originally bought to be the companion of a previous rat after her sister died (tumor). The surviving sister also had a tumor, but it wasn't immediately debilitating/fatal like the others was, but I guess the weakness was sensed by Champ, and she just wouldn't take to her. I eventually separated them because Champ always picked on the sick rat, stole food, attacked in ways that did not seem playful at all (sometime they would interact normally, but it seemed rare). Champ also went from skittish to aggressive with me, biting hard enough to draw blood. That was almost the end of her story, but I gave her another chance.

The sick rat passed and I got champ back into the bigger cage, though the one she was in alone wasn't horribly small and she wasn't full grown yet anyway. she remained scarred/aggressive with me, despite my attempts at trust training with snacks. I couldn't hold her, when would go for her she would hunch a fluff out, and stand primed to lunge and bite. I'll admit, it could make me a bit nervous, I'm not the dainty type, but rat bites can hurt something fierce, especially with the flared teeth thing, they shred. I was also a bit fearful of my own temper, it flares, and they're just that much more scared of me, y'know? That's not what i wanted.

So I switched gears, instead of calming her down before getting her a companion, I thought a companion might calm her down. Sure enough, it worked. I couldn't do a proper neutral ground introduction, as I couldn't really get ahold of Champ to put her on neutral ground. So I did my own technique, after waiting about a week to make sure the new girl, Gwen, wasn't sick or anything, I placed her cage right up next to the bigger one. They would kind of go nose to nose through the bars and just sniff and stare. I let that go on for a few days, and would occasionally trade out wads of bedding or nesting back and fourth, so they'd be used to each others scents. Finally the day came and I put Gwen in the big cage. There were squabbles, no doubt, but that's normal. I was home for the entire day, so if it got bad I say Champs name loud or clap my hands once real loud or something and they'd sort of freeze and stop. By the end of the night they were playing and they snuggled up and slept together for a bit. The next day, you'd have thought they had always been together.

It was a few weeks later when Josi came to me from a friend of friend. Knowing she wasn't ill, I went straight to the putting her cage, a little lab tub she's always lived in :-(,up next to my cage. all parties were instantly interested, and that night I took out Gwen and put her on the couch with Josi. They didn't even do a face off I don't think, just sniffed each-other and started running around and playing. So I just went ahead and housed her in the big cage, I couldn't stand putting her back in that little tub. Josi and Champ did face off, and they squabbled a bit, bit it didn't take long for them all to start playing and sleeping together.

As the months have gone by, Champ seemed to calm a bit. I was able to pet her in the cage, though she would still tense up some, kind of lean away, but she eventually stopped priming to bite. Eventually I was even able to pick her up, though she still doesn't really like it and will run from being picked up just as often as I get her. If she runs I let her, I figure it just scares her and gets her worked up if I'm essentially chasing her through the cage with my hand.

So everything seemed great. One big happy family. We're all hanging out on the couch now, though Champ won't climb on me like the others will, she likes the boxamajig maze, and tends to just hang out there. But she's out of the cage. I can pick her up without having a finger shredded, that was the goal.

But over the past few days, Champ's getting aggressive again. The cage play seems too rough to me, the other two are just shrieking while Champ has them pinned. And last time I went to get her out she did the fluff up thing again.

Well, if you bothered to read all that, any ideas why she might be slipping back into her old ways?

 

[jorats]

How old is champ?
Some rats become grumpy if they have lice or mites.
When Champ pins down a buddy, what does the other buddy do?

 

[I_Monster]

Sometimes they just jay there, sometimes the squiggle trying to get free, and it seems like normal play, but sometimes there are just all these squeaks and occasionally what borders on a shriek. But it's only when Chap does the pinning. They all pin each other, but only when Chap is on top does it seem like I hear the squeaking.

A few days ago Champ had pinned Josi, it seemed normal enough, I don't even recall excessive squeaking, a lot of pushing back with her back feet while on her back, then she went still, they both were like frozen for a minute, then Champ got off Josi and started grooming herself and Josi just laid there on her back with her feet up. She looked dead, kinda freaked me out, when I said her name she rolled over and looked up then seemed to be fine.

It does sort of seem like I've noticed them itching lately, how do I check for mites / get rid of them? I lost my job a couple months ago so money is pretty tight. I don't know that I could do a vet. There's the credit card option for emergencies, but it's gotta really be an emergency to justify.

 

[Joanne]

You could try some Revolution on them. We can buy it at the vet's office. You'll only need one tube to treat all of them. The Rat Guide has some info:
http://ratguide.com/meds/anti-infective ... lution.php

 

[jorats]

The pinning sounds pretty normal, same with the momentary freezing.

 

[I_Monster]

Yeah I know the pinning is no big deal, I thought I said I see them all do that to each other, the issue for me is that when Champ is on top, whomever is on bottom is just squeaking and squeaking. Occasionally even a screech. I know the general rule is no blood no foul, but I'm curious that it is only Champ that seems to be consistently playing so rough.

Another concern I've sort of been having is group exclusion. Sometimes all three of the cram into the same spot an all snuggle up. Sometimes all three take a different spot for their nap. But 9 out of ten mornings when I wake up and get ready for the day, Champ and Josi are sleeping together somewhere, and Gwen, the youngest, is alone somewhere and just looks so sad. It's very depressing to see.

 

[jorats]

Rats that are alone usually choose to be alone but since you do see them on occasion together, then I wouldn't worry.
Champ is the alpha and needs to set the other straight. When you hear that squeaking, that's pretty much protesting like yelling get off of me or saying, ok, ok, I understand.

 

[I_Monster]

So, it's because she's the alpha that she's more rough? I understand what the squeaks "say", but why do they only have to "say" it to her. If Josi pins Gwen, nothing, if Gwen pins Josi, nothing, if either of them pin Champ, nothing, Champ pins either one, shrieking bloody murder...

She also bit me again the other day, not too hard, not enough to really bleed, but there was two spread apart pin spots that almost bled (like if I had squeezed around it I'd have gotten a drop). The others have done little test nips before, or grabbed with their teeth, but they never leave a mark when they do it. This was undoubtedly aggressive.

My defense in owning rats to non-rat owners is that they're basically like really small dogs. If a dog regularly bites viciously it has to be put down. I don't want to have to do this with my rat but the past bite tore me up pretty good. That ever happens again... I'd rather not think that way. I just want her to chill out. She was doing better for a while, months, now she's reverting. I don't get it.

 

[lilspaz68]

What did you do to cause her to bite you?

All the behaviours are very typical of an alpha and their response to her is normal as well. Your cage seems to be just fine.

 

[jorats]

The pins from Champ are a lesson so they mean more hence the shrieking.
As for the biting... That is not a reason to put down a rat. You need to respect her space. Find out what sets her off... If it's your hand in the cage then you no longer put your hand in tha cage while she's in there.

 

[Kibble]

If your other rats aren't covered in chomp marks, she's not being rough with them - Agnes and Kiki would sometimes very slowly and ritually fight, and the one that rolled lazily onto her back would be eeping her head off, even though the one on top would only be kneading her stomach. Rats seem to have a really strong social structure, like hyenas, and they need to act in certain ways to keep it steady, I think.

Also, when Agnes was a bitey baby, if she chomped me, I'd pick her up and hold her firmly against my chest for a few minutes. She eeped and wiggled, but I didn't let go until she calmed down, and she stopped biting after a few weeks. But when Kiki nips, it's because she's a bit dense, and all I have to do is not act like food around her. The point being, rats have little quirks, but they're pretty bright and very social, and you can work with them.

And even if you end up just having to put a blanket over Champ every time you need to go in the cage - don't have her put down! Dog bites are huge and dangerous compared to rat bites, and rats are habitualy contained, rather than allowed to mix with children and strangers. But I hope you can get some sense into her!

 

[I_Monster]

Okay, I have a bad habit of wording things poorly. I don't have any intent of killing her. But I also don't want to continue to be bit. I was attempting to make a point about how much one should tolerate a biting animal. Some dogs need to be put down for danger and sometimes the person who got bit should just consider it a lesson learned. I remember when I was a kid the city put down someones dog because it bit a kid but the kid was poking it with a stick through the fence and then climb up on the fence to taunt it, as far as I'm concerned the dog did no wrong.

Here's where I'm coming from with Champ...

The first bite I've forgiven, she was little, and was backed into a corner of my old cage, that was also hidden by a bit of an obstruction, I was giving treats to the other rat and when I reached into the little nook with my fingertips to give her a treat she bit my fingers instead. My own fault really, I shouldn't have stuck a finger in her face while she felt like she was hidden, it was obtrusive and threatening. Then for a long time, she would lunge at me, well my hand, and puff all up, it was very obvious that it was "that hand gets near me and I'm taking a chunk of it". Then with the new rats, she's really calmed down and started to get social. She chilled out with me, all the pinning was going on, but not the shrieking. Then in the last couple weeks, shrieking and puffing up on me. This last bite, I again kinda brought on myself. It was couch time, and I was 'wrestling' with her. Kinda chasing her with my hand and scratching on her back. My old rats LOVED this game, Josi, likes it a little, Gwen just runs away and hides and stares at me when I try this, and at first, Champ seemed to be playing, then a sudden puff, lunge, and bite. I'm certain that if I hadn't noticed the puffing and started to pull back the bite would have been much worse.

I read back in the day about a medicine for dogs, like an animal Prozac, that chills them out. You put in their water I believe. For dogs it's like a tablespoon or two, like a child's dose of cough syrup, for the rats it was just put one drop in the water bottle. Anyone familiar with this?

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

I'm not familiar with that medication but I just wanted to add that it's never a good idea to add anything to an animals water source as it can cause them to drink less if they don't like the taste of it.

 

[hopefloats]

I don't know about any medicine for rats. I have a biter myself, I basically decided she will just live her life out as a biter, I just watch how i grab her. I worked with her, but when I found out her sisters were biters too, I decided it was probably a poor breeding. The puffing would concern me, I am ok with bites, i dont like them but i deal with it because i adore her hateful little self but if she was coming at me with full blown anger I think i would have a different concern

My male was a horrible biter in his old home, he was fixed and even before, he stopped biting. It took a lot of work with him, but I have not had any success with my girl biter regardless of what i tried.

Does she only bite in the cage? I know some rats can get cage aggression i dont know much about it, because toby had it but we got him to stop it easily. it took some working with him.

I had to learn mallymkuns triggers, she hates her back touched, in the rat world it is a bad thing i have heard, for some anyway. You can tell with her when she gets annoyed and will bite, so we at least have a warning.

I hope someone has some answers to help you, i think most of us has had a biter and can totally understand. I chose to stop worrying about it, and just let her be, right or wrong, she is still living life out happy and i generally dont get bit lol

 

[I_Monster]

Yeah, I figure worst case scenario, she'll just not get out of cage play time if it means a shredded hand, but I don't like the thought of that. It's a good size cage but I don't want her to never come out with me on the couch.

My other concern is my temper. Getting bit results in a pretty good angry shout, then they're all terrified for a while. I hate it. I don't want my little critters to be scared of me. But I've also read about rat bites being powerful enough to cause permanent nerve damage. They can chew through concrete after all.

And if I found and did use the medicine, I don't think I'd put it in the water bottle anyway, the other two personalities are fine. I'd have to find a way to administer it to only Champ.

 

[hopefloats]

is there anyway you could put a ramp to where the free time is and let her come out on your own? I yelled well kinda screeched with shock at first when I got bit, now I kinda laugh it off, usually because my 13 year old is cracking up by this point because she never gets bit by her only me lol. With Toby and dopey our rescued hairless, i wore a shirt for the day, then I took it off and put it in their cage, did this a few times. It might help with her accepting your smell in her cage, rats are kinda goofy like that. her whole thing is she don't like you in her space, mally is the same way, Toby was too but he was just ticked off, not genetically angered so he changed fast for me. I didn't touch either of them in their cage, i worked with treats to ease them out, down a ramp, i refused to be bit by a boy since their teeth are bigger, I mostly used yogurt and a spoon, bite away wont hurt me. rats only have teeth to show they are serious. It isn't meant as ill fate towards you but it is their instinct to protect their space usually. Personally i would give her a ramp out of the cage so she can have free time, Dont touch her for a while, feed her treats off a spoon once she is comfortable, I would ease into a touch on a head, or on the upper shoulders but stay way from her bottom, that can make them angry. just go slow, when she changes her attitude towards taking it on the spoon and does it more freely, then move in with a here is a treat, and a slight touch, that worked with out boys but mally well i haven't found the magic solution's for her.

 

[Bamboo]

Hmm, I don't think I can really add anything that hasn't already been said. When she's pinning her cage-mates and they're squealing, I don't think there's a problem. My group is the same way; a lot of the time when they're being "pushed around" by my alpha girl they'll squeal like crazy too. As far as I'm concerned it's no blood, no foul.

About her biting you, I don't know what to tell you. I've only really been bitten by pet rats twice -once was just an over excited guy grabbing a treat out of my hand (and that hardly even bled lol) and they other was a recently rescued male last year. He was never particularly friendly and never seemed quite "right". One day, I don't know what happened but he just launched at my hand and got several good bites in. He died not long after. However, I'm almost certain that he had neurological issues and I don't think that's the case here.

I have heard the occasional case of "cage aggression" which is where rats don't want people in their cage this often results in bites. I don't know what is done about this, if anything. Also, i was under the impression that cage aggression was a result of lack of socialization, so I doubt that's your problem either.

I may be completely wrong lol I'm just thinking out loud. All I can say with certainty is "Good luck with her!"

 

[I_Monster]

Well the first bite was in the cage, but I think it was fear based self protection, not aggression, really. The second bite was during free time and I was scratching on her but, as stated back a couple posts may set them off. I didn't know that, I just assumed it's go over well, scratching at the bast of the tail, dogs and cats always love it.

I usually have always been comfortable with the 'no blood no foul'' rule, it's just struck me as odd that only the one rat CAUSES squealing. But form the sounds of things that's normal.

Unfortunately, letter her ease out isn't an option, the cage is on the opposite side of the room, and there are too many danger zones to allow them to free range on the floor. Though last night I picker her up easier than I ever have before. So she seems to be easing up with me. And during couch time, the other two kept regularly pouncing Champ and pinning her. So every thing seems to be fine, I guess I was just being overly concerned for nothing.

 

[hopefloats]

I know with our biter, I have to announce to her that I am there LOL I start sweet talking her before I pick her up, generally that helps with her not biting me.... When I dont say Hey mally how are ya girly...I usually get bit....