Food coming back up? Completely stumped

[RKEM]

So I have this male with chronic breathing problem. He was being maintained on Baytril when yesterday I found him looking panicked with a whole bunch of food laced drool around his mouth. He wasn't doing the choking weirdo movements ... it was just drooling out. We took him to the ER where they thought it was his URI flaring up or perhaps that had degenerated into pneumonia. Doxy was added along with Metacam (I'm a bit surprised by that ... she said it might be better than pred due to it being non-steriod).

Today we tried steaming him and to keep him a bit less active. But nothing is changing other than him trying to eat and a short while later I will find a puddle of drool with chewed up food in it. It's like he can chew (his teeth look fine) but something brings the food back up. And come to think of it, this is what was happening first that made me go to the ER.

There is massive amounts of porphyrin around his mouth (which I assume is from the excessive drooling) and he is somewhat interested in food but not a whole lot. I'm not sure what more the ER can do and I will phone his regular vet tomorrow although she is only there on Tuesday. But he is losing weight fast and I am completely stumped. Some food does seem to get in (I found 5 poops in the hospital cage) but apparently a large portion of it does not.

He doesn't seem interested in ensure ... only rice, corn and peas (but those come back out it seems so I have no clue how much stays in)

Ideas? Suggestions? I'm seriously out of ideas at this point. We've given him some sub-cu fluids because he seemed dehydrated (from the drooling I saw I'm not surprised) and he is peeing and there is no weirdness with that. His poops are also fine so I'm really at a loss as to what is going on. Has anybody seen something similar before?

 

[lilspaz68]

feel his throat to see if there'ssomething there pressing that makes him unable to swallow?

I have never seen porphyrin around a mouth, are you sure its not blood? Could he have bitten his tongue?

 

[RKEM]

I compared him with Gaston and I can't see any difference. But clearly, he has a hard time swallowing. He tried to eat some cucumber and then took some ensure but clearly it seemed to be a struggle to swallow. I also saw some pinkish puddles mixed with food earlier on. I assumed it may have been saliva but maybe it was blood. Really not sure what to do at this point.

What do you think of Metacam as an anti-inflamatory to try and help his breathing. Does that make any sense or should I just stop that. It's bad enough to have to harass him twice for Baytril and Doxy .... but if I'm giving him something that doesn't help ... not too fond of that.

 

[lilspaz68]

I compared him with Gaston and I can't see any difference. But clearly, he has a hard time swallowing. He tried to eat some cucumber and then took some ensure but clearly it seemed to be a struggle to swallow. I also saw some pinkish puddles mixed with food earlier on. I assumed it may have been saliva but maybe it was blood. Really not sure what to do at this point.

What do you think of Metacam as an anti-inflamatory to try and help his breathing. Does that make any sense or should I just stop that. It's bad enough to have to harass him twice for Baytril and Doxy .... but if I'm giving him something that doesn't help ... not too fond of that.

Dr Munn often prescribes metacam for URI's along with doxy/baytril and theophylline.

It does sound like blood. I wonder if he chomped his tongue deep inside and its swollen up. Try him on a liquid diet for now.

 

[RKEM]

Well he took some ensure with me feeding him with a spoon and he tried to eat a piece of cucumber so I'm happy for that. He was showing more interest in food than yesterday. I'll continue the meds and the spoon feeding every time I see him out of his igloo. Glad to hear that the metacam makes sense.

And thank you for the crazy fast response and sound advice. It's almost like having a rat health hotline. :heart:

 

[lilspaz68]

Glad I could help a little...

 

[Aida]

Any updates? Poor little guy. Can you get him to open his mouth for you to peer in? Or try to catch him during a yawn...

 

[RKEM]

Unfortunately Figaro had to be euthanized Monday morning. :sad3:

He bled again Sunday and only ate a minimal amount of ensure and only if I held the spoon near him and when he did eat he would then sit with his head down as if attempting to let everything dribble out so who knows how much actually got in. I also tried runny peas, corn and rice puree and even that would come back up. There were also stains on the blanket telling em that he bled during the night. We got him not to his usual vet (who isn't there on Mondays) but to Carling Animal Hospital which sees a lot of small exotics.

His mouth was fine but his gums were terribly pale and he had lost 5% of his body weight since Saturday so really his food intake was probably next to nothing. His lungs were still terribly congested (the vet couldn't hear his heart) and he was chest heaving. There was no way an x-ray was going to be possible without an anesthetic (he was very agitated ... I think just aggravation at all the medicating we had to do over the past two days that he would fight any form of handling and then be left heaving). The vet was fairly convinced that any anesthesia would be fatal given his lungs and how he was probably bleeding internally somewhere in his throat or further down. She suggested that he may have had some lesion or possibly a mass inside throat or lower down, blocking food from going down that may have burst or be made to bleed by food.

The only option available was to add one more pain medication but really, what would that have accomplished? Had he been able to eat I would have tried pushed the treatment for a few more days but his refusal of food would have required force feeding, something which I have never been successful at in any meaningful way; and it would have added yet more stressful episodes in addition to being medicated 5 times a day already and each time meant a struggle and then him collapsing in exhaustion afterward. To continue wouldn't have been very humane especially since he was obviously hungry, trying to eat and then would brux in discomfort, panic, perch and food would come back out (I suspect eating was painful but hunger drove him to eat). It was just too much all at once for the little dude.

Seems nature was very unfair with these guys. Between Nero's lightning quick growing lymphoma and now this mysterious internal bleeding issue, it just feels sad an unfair that they apparently got handed down such crappy genetics. Gaston is still going strong. He has the start of HED (hesitation with his back legs while walking sometimes) and breathing issues but Baytril seems to be maintaining him. And he certainly has no eating issues. I panicked yesterday when I felt something thick on his side ... then I realized it was simply chubbiness.

Sorry for the lack of update ... I just wasn't in a state to post.

 

[lilspaz68]

Its okay hun, we totally understand not being able to post about this. Ohhh poor Figgy. could it also have been a lymphoma growing more internally?? these rats are even 2 years old...its so freakin sad!

((hugs)) How is Gaston doing on his own?

 

[RKEM]

It could have been ... I really don't know where these can pop up ... Gaston seems a bit bored. I always feel sad for the last of any group. I change the entire layout of the cage nightly so he has different things to play with and check out and he gets to go out as long as he wants (though the lure of treats generally makes him decide that he's had enough play after less than one hour). He's not a cuddly rat like Fig was, more independent. He's been having some serious staredowns with the cat though and I try to give him things to inspect and look at ... sniffing things and eating seem to be his favourite activities.

 

[lilspaz68]

Let me know if you are going to be looking for companions for Gaston...I can put out feelers.

Lets hope Gaston changes his independent mind and becomes a cuddlebunny for you. I am sure you need it!!

 

[RKEM]

I'm not going to for now given his ongoign lung issues. I wouldn't want any companion rats to become ill or the newbies passing on something to him. I've had a pretty bad experience like that in the past. 4 weeks quantaine in different rooms and everybody was fine. Intros go like a charm and 48h after they are all together, everybody is sick. I don't know if this was a one off thing that doesn't happen often but it was pretty terrifying.

 

[mamarat]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

[jorats]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

[Joanne]

I'm so sorry you had to say goodbye to your boy. It doesn't sound like there was anything you could have done. It was kindest to let him go. When my first rat died and left behind her sister, she became very needy of company and really changed, wanting to spend a lot of time with me. Maybe Gaston will become like that...

 

[RKEM]

We'll see. I try give him as much interaction as he will allow, scratching him, petting him, etc. I'd let him free range all the time while I'm at home if it wasn't for the cat.