Eli and Quinn Continue to Fight

[evantide]

So I posted previously, several months ago regarding Eli and Quinn's fighting as Quinn become an adult male (a bigger threat to the slightly older male, Eli). The fighting was steady. Happened at least once a day, usually at night when they were up and about. You'd hear squeaks of horror as they raced around their cage, shaking the single level Critter Nation and knocking their hanging accessories around. The fighting never resulted in injury... Until now. They continue to fight every night. As I said before, they still snuggle and spend cute ratty time together, but now Quinn is starting to show battle wounds. He's got a rat bite on his side, and face, a scab on his little toe, some scratches on his tail. Eli has a couple of scabs of his own, but not nearly as bad as Quinn. I was afraid to separate them because separating them even for a short amount of time could mean having to reintroduce them. It has become so nerve wracking that I even wanted to find them a new home. Let someone else deal with it But then I would only worry about them.

Tonight they got in a bad fight. I don't know what causes their disputes, but I think Eli is the aggressor. I started using a water bottle to squirt him if he tries to attack Quinn. He stops as soon as he sees the water bottle. I don't know if this is a good method or not. I do dry him afterwards so he doesn't get a chill or anything.

But now I have him and Quinn separated. It's only been 15 minutes. Should I keep them separated or should I keep letting them fight? I mean it's been MONTHS that this has gone on and I don't really have the time to sit here and watch/wait for them to get into a brawl. Even then, I don't know the right steps to stop them, or correct the behavior.

I would hate to keep them separate, and then make them live their lives alone. Getting more rats is not an option. I wouldn't even have time to intro new rats, much less care for more rats when I am struggling to care for my two males.

As I type this, Quinn is snuggled in an old shirt in the hood of my hoodie. His bite wounds cleaned up. Belly full of treats (I shared the tomato from my hamburger - washed it off first). I feel kind of guilty for giving him all this attention, but I feel even worse for even allowing him to be injured by my other rat...

I am at a loss. I have no idea what to do. I just want them to co-exist without hurting each other. And I know it's important to have more than one rat because they are social animals. I've been trying to keep them together, but it's been a disadvantage to Quinn being stuck with a bully.

HELP!!!

 

[jorats]

How old are the boys now?
Have they ever been treated for mites? That could make for grumpy rats. They live in a single CN?

 

[evantide]

Yes they live in a single CN. I used to clean it every single day. I use fleece as their bedding, and they had to get new hammocks and cubes and tunnels every week or two because they would chew/pee on them. I only clean them a couple times a week now, but they've been fighting like this for 2-3 months (long before I started cleaning them less). They don't get out as much as they used to, and I'm wondering if they are fussy because of it.

Quinn was 7 weeks old in April. We guestimated Eli to be between 5-7 months old back in March when I first got him (they are both rescues).

I don't think they have a mite problem. None of my pets have ever had mites. Not saying it's impossible though, but I don't think mites are causing them to get into fights.

 

[evantide]

Also, they haven't had a new tunnel, hammock, or cube for several weeks. Only their houses. Two on the bottom shelf with their litter box and food bowl, and one on the second level where most of their hanging toys are.

 

[jorats]

Mites can absolutely cause rats to be grumpy and fight. I'd do a treatment just in case, just so we can rule it out.

So it is Quinn who basically is always getting hurt? Can you find a pattern to the fighting, like at meal times or after cage clean up, before out time or after out time... something like that.
You could try a "time out" cage. You put the bully in the time out cage for about 10 to 15 minutes each time there's a scuffle. The time out cage should be small, with nothing in it, no water, no food. Leave it near their cage. It needs to be an unpleasant place to go.

 

[evantide]

I've looked for a pattern. Nothing. It seems random. They could be eating, or drinking, or sitting/sleeping in one of their houses, then suddenly they are wrestling across the cage until someone is cornered. It's not just one particular thing, like feeding time or anything that you would think might cause a controversy. They could just be passing each other in the cage, and BAM, fight breaks loose.

 

[jorats]

Ok so for now, try the time out cage.

 

[evantide]

Ok.

And what about when I'm not around to supervise? Keep them together, or what? I was thinking of ways to keep them together but separate so they can't get in a fight when I'm not home to see (when at work or sleeping... fortunately I'm off tomorrow). Do you think it would be okay to put the aggressor in a separate cage that would fit within the Critter Nation? Just overnight til tomorrow? Or should I just leave them together? They would have an equal amount of space with the small cage inside of the CN. They would both have access to water bottles, food bowls, and houses to sleep in, etc. I can never hear them fighting from the bedroom.

By the way, thanks for all of your advice. I really don't want to have to separate them or give up on them. I know they are capable of co-existing and being good to each other. I was just hoping that by now they would have determined who was going to be the dominant male!

 

[evantide]

While waiting for a reply, I thought I would see how it might work with the cage inside the cage... I gave them both fresh foods to preoccupy them in their own separate spaces. Eli in the smaller cage, and Quinn in the bigger cage (but they have about equal amount of space). After munching on their food, I see Eli standing at the bars of his cage (which are an inch apart). He just kinda stood there. Quinn was still eating, swaying his head because his eyesight isn't as good. A few minutes later, I hear squeak and some weird squeaking sound they've never made before (like it's a long drawn out squeak, over and over like the sound of a swing going back and forth and the hinges make that squeaky sound). I look over to find Quinn standing by the bars to Eli's cage. Both rats staring at each other, swaying, Eli trying to turn his side/back towards Quinn. Quinn had his mouth open, making that swinging-squeak sound while Eli continued to lung forward and bite Quinn's hands numerous times. Quinn never ran. He just stood there and let it happen.

So I'm still wondering if this is a good idea or not. Regardless, if I keep them together in the same cage overnight, they are bound to get in a fight and Quinn will end up with more bite wounds.

I am getting ready to go to bed as soon as I get the word on what to do overnight.

 

[hopefloats]

Most of my scared boys do that mouth thing. They are unsure of themselves usually and they end up getting picked on. I have one now that does it every time a black rat walks by With mine it isn't that the screamer is getting picked on but the other boys seems to make them conform with pinning, even when they don't want to be pinned.

Eli sounds a bit grumpy......I am guessing a neuter isnt possible?

 

[jorats]

I would strongly recommend a neuter for Eli. For some reason, Eli becomes stressed and must dominate Quinn, Quinn doesn't understand this and becomes defensive instead of letting Eli pin him. I'm having the same issue with two of my boys right now. So my colony is divided in two until I can take the time to start intros all over again.
What about putting your boys in a small carrier and go for a long drive with them in the car. If you can get them to bond in a scary place for a long time, that might help a great deal.

 

[evantide]

I don't think car rides are very scary to them. Back when I had a little more time and freedom, I would pack them in the carrier and take them for rides because my dog also enjoys them. We would visit pet friendly stores, and particularly the one I work at, which we hung out at a lot (my co-workers love the rats so everyone would take turns handling them).

I was going to have both males neutered when I first got them, but the cheapest I can find in the area for a neuter is 300$ for one male. That's kind of out of my budget right now.

What do you guys think about the cage within a cage idea? So that they are still technically together, but separated enough to where they can't seriously hurt each other? Or would this have the same effect as if they were entirely separated, even though they can still touch, see, and smell?

Quinn has always been defiant. Even when he was little, he would never submit to Eli.

Knowing them, I'm sure I can take them for a ride, or put them in the bathtub, or make them endure something new and horrific and during that time they would not fight. But inside the cage, and sometimes during out of the cage time (which isn't very often anymore) I would catch Eli running across the room to get Quinn... That's kind of why I stopped blogging and taking pictures. I'd have my eye in the camera and wouldn't see Eli coming until he got to Quinn. And taking pictures of them became less enjoyable because of the fighting.

 

[hopefloats]

What do you guys think about the cage within a cage idea? So that they are still technically together, but separated enough to where they can't seriously hurt each other? Or would this have the same effect as if they were entirely separated, even though they can still touch, see, and smell?

All my males really think they are Big bad butts in a cage. I think putting a cage in a cage, could cause toes and nose bites and could make him look more angry than he is. They are always badder behind bars LOL

 

[temblabamomo]

What do you guys think about the cage within a cage idea? So that they are still technically together, but separated enough to where they can't seriously hurt each other? Or would this have the same effect as if they were entirely separated, even though they can still touch, see, and smell?

All my males really think they are Big bad butts in a cage. I think putting a cage in a cage, could cause toes and nose bites and could make him look more angry than he is. They are always badder behind bars LOL

I kinda second that, no cage ever stopped rats from nipping at one another. I actually see more bites and scratches when there's bars between boys than when I put them together with nothing separating them. Out on the bed for instance, there's a lot of huffing and puffing and pushing and shoving, but I don't let it get as far as biting before separating them. With a cage between them, they aren't able to push or shove one another, and the only thing they seem able to do is get their snout through for a quick bite.

 

[jorats]

I don't like the idea of leaving a rat in such a tiny cage. Plus, it could make him even more aggressive.
I highly recommend tons and tons of together time, on your shoulders, on a small surface with yummy food, in a smallish carrier for car rides. Holding the two of them together on your lap...

 

[evantide]

I've decided to separate them for good. I understand it's not in the best interest of either rat, but Quinn is now missing a toe and has a couple of new bite marks on his side and one on his face. I came home from work to find a bloody mess I'm not experienced enough to handle this kind of situation. I knew there would be fighting, especially when Quinn reached puberty, but I was hoping it would never come to this. I don't know what else to do except separate them. I would like to consider getting Quinn a nicer companion, but that would be absurd if I can't even handle the two I've got. I'm sorry guys Maybe after awhile I can reintroduce them... But for right now, this seems like the safest option if I want to keep Quinn from being traumatized any longer.

 

[hopefloats]

Aww I know that feeling. The one needs a neuter it will solve the problems. I had to stop intros for the same reason. I would keep their out time together still, just watch them closely. I also know that without a neuter you may still have the same out come. The whole purpose of intros is buddies but some jus fight it. I also won't continue intros when they fight that bad.

 

[evantide]

Well I haven't necessarily stopped an intro. They've lived together for several months. First they did great. Intros went SO smoothly that it was unbelievable! Things were going great with them for a long time, and then suddenly they started fighting. I think it's because Quinn grew up and became more of a threat. Regardless of the reason, they started fighting more and more. Now Eli just targets Quinn. If they aren't sleeping, Eli is being up Quinn. Now Quinn is missing one of his fore-fingers and jumps whenever I touch him. I'm just mad that I let this get too far. I can't afford to neuter Eli right now so I have to separate them and hopefully an intro later on will be okay. For now I think Quinn needs time to heal, and Eli needs to sulk in loneliness for being a big jerk. Maybe they will appreciate each other when I reintroduce them again in a while.

 

[hopefloats]

My boy Templeton did that same thing with boys, one in particular, Dopey. Sometimes unless you do the surgery it doesn't work out. I know you did the intro's already, it was a generic term. I mean that when you have them out, I wouldn't stop all contact. I would try to have them both out together so that you can still keep some ground with being familiar to other rats. It does suck to have rats alone but it isn't safe to have them fight either.

 

[jorats]

That's a good idea. Give them a break from each other... then start the intros all over again.