don't know what to do with these girls

[Petunia]

I have the two older girls and the two new girls in a double CN- one pair has the top and one pair has the bottom- they do not get along at all!
they can't be let out together, ever- because the older girls attack the younger ones (and the young ones seem to want to fight with the older girls as well but the older ones are more aggressive or better fighters, not sure which)

but the problem now is, when I let the young ones out to free range in the rat room, they will climb up the cage to harass the old girls!!!!!!!!
why do they do this??
so now i have to rat proof a whole other room for them......... :gaah:


but I am also wondering if having them in the same cage, even though they each have half-
if that is upsetting them more
and maybe they should not live so close together

they try to get to each other thru the parttion which i've had to block off with layers and layers of things.
why do they hate each other so much?



should I get another cage so they are not living so close to each other? they will sniff me all over when i've had the other pair out on me, i don't know if the scent of the other rats excites them or gets them upset, but they sniff it intensely.

I thought with time they'd get used to each ohter's scents but now I am wondering if it's just upsetting them and getting them angrier


all of my animals are jealous of each other, it seems. If i talk to one or pet one, the others come running and try to get my attention, and NONE of them are the least bit neglected, if anything they are all horribly spoiled

i really don't like fighting, it makes me nervous
and I don't want to have to take wounded rats to the vets! (the time that Cookie and Clair were introduced, Clair bit Cookie at least ten times- vet said that if i hadn't stepped in, Clair would have killed Cookie. Do you think that really would have happened?!?)

 

[jorats]

I would keep them living in the same cage. What I used to do is coroplast the cage so the upstairs rats could harass the downstairs rats during out time.
They will eventually get used to the smells. (I hope)

 

[Petunia]

ah I forgot about coroplast, I gotta get some of that as soon as I"ve got some $$

I tried blocking the cage off with various items but these girls are great climbers

 

[Fidget]

i really don't like fighting, it makes me nervous

Not to be critical, but this might be part of the problem why they can't get ok with each other - if you're doing intros and you are really nervous they are going to pick up on that and go into the meeting feeling nervous already. Animals don't understand our intentions but they sure do pick up on our feelings and if their boss is nervous about a situation they sure will be too.
Do you have any rat-savvy friends (or closeby RatShack members) who could help with the intros? I'd think your nervous vibes are the most in-the-way thing. Possible a couple could just hate each other and never get on, but not likely all 4 would feel that way. If you don't have anyone to help I'd intro 1 to 1 at a time on the couch or bed with you with treats and distractions. Find out who is most determined to not get along and put the other 3 together in a cage keeping that one separate in the other cage. When the 3 bond ok, try the troublemaker on the couch with them all.
btw, this is just what I would do, others have other suggestions. With intros it's trial & error, try all suggestions, but most important - you need to get yourself relaxed and feeling positive however you need to do it before you do intros. Best of hopes for you & your girls!

 

[Petunia]

Hi, well with all due respect, I did try intros when I wasn't nervous, and it was a total disaster, which is why I am now nervous

I put the girls together and there was a horrible fight and I ended up having to take one to the vets- she had at least ten bite wounds on her, and I was afraid her toes had been bitten too but it was just blood from the other wounds

there's a post about it somewhere

I can't see me ever getting over being nervous about them being together now, they have such strong animosity towards each other.

I am sure if I were doped up on tranquilizers- type calm that it woudn't make a bit of difference, these girls do not like each other

The older girls have always been this way- I've had them since they were babies. The younger ones may be able to be intro'ed to OTHER rats at some point, but NOT these two older girls

thanks for the input and I didn't take it as criticism, I would have been thinking something similar if I hadn't seen this all with my own eyes


I can see how aggressive these two pairs are toward each other and it has nothing to do with me, that much I am sure of

 

[Fidget]

I'm so sorry, and that sure wasn't a critique of you, just a point-out that the human's nervousness really can come into play during intros. But I didn't read your beginning Sorry.
So how to answer your questions? Have you tried just 1-on-1 with the old girls and the new? I just figure there's always a troublemaker and if you can get 3 to bond together away from her then you can make the troublemaker the outsider that needs the approval of the group. Can only use my own experience and offer what worked for me, but every situation & kid is different.
If intros are out then I guess it's up to your space and budget whether they share a cage or have a separate one. Hugs.

 

[Petunia]

I'm so sorry, and that sure wasn't a critique of you, just a point-out that the human's nervousness really can come into play during intros. But I didn't read your beginning Sorry.
So how to answer your questions? Have you tried just 1-on-1 with the old girls and the new? I just figure there's always a troublemaker and if you can get 3 to bond together away from her then you can make the troublemaker the outsider that needs the approval of the group. Can only use my own experience and offer what worked for me, but every situation & kid is different.
If intros are out then I guess it's up to your space and budget whether they share a cage or have a separate one. Hugs.

oh heavens, no apologies needed!! I would've been thinking the same thing, if I hadn't seen these girls together. I had a hard time believing they wouldn't eventually settle down and get interested in each other, but they're not having any of it.

I tried the one on one- Tilly with Cookie, but that didn't work, they were pretty evenly matched as far as aggression toward each other, and Clair with Hope, but Clair- well Clair is the oldest and she doesn't haven't any patience for any other rat but Tilly.

Cookie and Hope have been cagemates their entire lives, same as with Clair and Tilly.

Cookie and Hope will power groom each other but it appears in that pair that Cookie is the alpha.

Clair is the alpha with Tilly.

You'd think the two under'dogs' would get along ok but nope, Tilly decided she'd try to dominate Hope and Hope was having none of that. Hope was pretty scared too. Tilly just seemed like she wanted to kill Hope, same as Clair with Cookie.

it's sad, I actually got the two younger girls shortly after Tilly had a tumor removed- it reminded me that they are not going to live forever and I didn't want to end up with one lone and sad girl.

If Clair is the first to pass on, there's a chance that Tilly can be intro'ed to the other two, because Tilly will probably be very lonely. But I don't see Clair ever accepting any other rats, so if Tilly goes first, Clair will probably be alone, and I don't think she'll mind.

Clair will be two years old on Dec 30th, Tilly won't be two til Feb 14th of next year

I didn't get a birthdate for the younger two but they are around a year- maybe younger, by the way they act LOL they are little maniacs! but I think my other girls were, too, til they reached about 18 mos then they slowed down.


anyway NO WORRIES!! I'm sorry if I came off sounding angry, I wasn't- just tired and depressed, has nothing to do with the rats, even.

Apparently girls are not usually this difficult to introduce to each other, I gotta got the weird ones :gaah: :giggle: :giggle:


thanks for your input, I will try to remember that being nervous won't help when/if the time comes that I might be able to put Tilly in with the young ones. (Clair acts like a very old lady, and Tilly does not, so I think I will lose Clair first. I hope I have a lot more time with her, but she's slowed down so much and sleeps an awful lot.)

 

[jennifervb]

Good lord, you poor thing!

Girls can be just as big a pain in the fuzzy rump as boys from what I understand. I had to have 4 of my 6 boys neutered to get them to knock off with the attitude. :roll:

Have any of your girls been spayed? I don't know if this plays as important a role in girl's behavior as it does with the boys, but I thought I would ask.

You might want to try sticking Tilly in the tub with the younger girls and leaving Clair alone in her cage if you haven't tried that already. Give it TIME!!! When my new boys, Albert and Roquefort came to live with me, they both copped an attitude that was unreal. I reached a point where I thought those two would never get along! Fortunately, I got them both neutered and kept trying with the intros and, eventually, they were able to "tolerate" each other. :giggle:

Douse them all with vanilla yogurt and let them clean each other in the bathtub. I have heard that this can really work although I never managed to have any yogurt in the house when I needed it. :laugh4:

Hang in there. You may just need to leave the girls separated until Clair passes. You said that she is the Alpha over Tilly so it would not surprise me if Tilly's attitude towards the other girls is merely to keep her "lady and mistress" appeased.

 

[jorats]

Unfortunately a spay does not work like a neuter does.