Do I keep them? Do I get rid of them? Which one? -New gash

[Sam]

Okay some background info:

I've had two female rats for about a year. They are a little older than a year old. They are amazing together.

I upgraded my cage and it fits 5 rats max. I adopted a female rat around a year old about two weeks ago. They get along very well, sleeping together, grooming each other etc., but the new girl has been getting more... dominate lately. She refuses to be pinned, fights back more. Nothing that really concerned me until now.

I also adopted a male rat, 2 years old, neutered. I was able to put him in the cage with the others after CAREFULLY following the instructions on intros on this site. The first intro went relatively well and he was put in after three days of very successful intros. It was a peaceful night. They all squabble a bit sometimes, but nothing serious, just some pinning and grooming. In general, they cuddle and are fine together.

One of my original rats was injured today. Major cut on the eye, lots of bleeding. I made a post about it in the ER section because I was really freaking out and vet's aren't open, but that's all under control for now. Before I saw that she was injured, there was lots of squeaking, I think that she was in a fight with another rat. This happened during play time. Nothing that aggressive ever seems to happen in the cage.

Now the problem:

It was a really dramatic scene, lots of blood gushing from the eye. My mom (I am living with my parents while I go to University) will not tolerate this. She is very firm on this: either my rats all get along, or the aggressor has to go (My mom is a very peaceful person; it was a gruesome scene). The problem is that I don't know who caused the injury. I am allowed to keep all of them, as long as nothing like this happens again.

I can't figure out who caused the injury! They are really great together in the cage, they cuddle and lick each other clean. They've never been this aggressive before, this is really out of the blue. I think it might be the new boy, but those two are always sleeping with each other in the cage...

The one with the injury is isolated right now. I would use that cage to house the aggressor (if I figure out who it is) but it's too small to keep anything that isn't injured. Also, keeping the aggressor separate is not something my mom agrees with. Like I stated above, if this isn't a one time thing, the aggressor cannot stay in my parent's house.

(That might have sounded a little strange... my parents are from a different country, don't speak English, and are very spiritual. They need peace in the house)

So basically, I need to figure out the likelihood of something like this happening again. If the possibility is too high, someone needs to go(I just don't know who)!

Sorry about the long post, I don't even know if any of that information was relevant. Please ask if you need anything cleared up or more info. I really appreciate any advice.


Urg, I woke up today and found them all asleep in a pile. When I lifter her out to give her antibiotic eye drops I found she has a 1/2 cm deep gash in her armpit area. How Do I treat this wound?

 

[xxchelle]

Are you sure it was aggression, or was it an "oops" injury? For example, sometimes a ratty will get a slice on their back, their tail, their toes, etc. from basically zigging where they should have zagged.

If there's no clear aggression, I wouldn't separate them just yet. The rule of thumb is no blood no foul, BUT in a case like this it doesn't sound like the blood was intentional?

 

[Sam]

I'm really really hoping that it was just an accident, but from all the squeaking I heard... I really don't know. They've all been acting up during play time lately, but I've never had anything like this happen.

 

[rodentmama]

The challenge of your parents is going to be hard. Rats do use some amount of aggression to work out the pecking order. Its normal. In fact I used to be really upset about the aggression between my sons until I watched the rat aggression and realized that it isn't malicious, they aren't upset by it, it is how they relate to each other and work out who is who and how they fit in the family. Strange but I breathed easier when I saw the relationship.

A few suggestions. Make sure everyone's toenails are clipped. Gashes can be bites or as Sam said it could be a scratch when someone was zigging and pushed off the other rat's eye.


Second, there is a neutraceutical called L-theonine derived from green tea that is safe and calming. You can put it in the food and all the rats should calm down from it. There is a commercial product called Anxitane by Virbac used for dogs and cats that I've used with my hyperstress boy. Tests were done with up to 5000 mg daily on rats with no ill effects. (You won't use that much! But I did use a "big dog" sized tablet with Moe every day and it helped). Or if you can get the product from a health food store it is probably cheaper. (The human version might be good for your parents

You upgraded your cage, is there any way to section it off? Moe can be calmed but he is always going to be a hair trigger rat. Audio as he became a teenager wanted to push for total cage dominance, and Spike who is sick just likes to bite other rats or the cat. Anyone who gets too close is fair game. There hasn't been blood but the cat keeps her distance In the end I gave up having four rats living peacefully in the condo. I was able to section off the top two levels for Audio and Spike and Lucy and Moe live in the bottom three levels. I even stopped running them for free play as Audio and Moe would go around puffed up like marshmallows and when they'd meet each other get into boxing matches. Much squealing, some scabs, no major blood. But they just didn't enjoy it. So again, each set of two gets free run on their own and sometimes I'll let Lucy run with her brothers and leave Moe in the cage. Is there a creative way to divide the one cage? You'd still have the same number of rats, in the same cage, but they'd not be able to fight.

Smells are a big deal too so if you clean the cage and then wipe lavendar hand cream on everyone's butt they may bond while figuring out who the stinky new rats are....worth a shot perhaps?

Good luck. Battles are so stressful and I've found I have to be very creative about them.

 

[jorats]

A cut on the eye is not really aggression. True aggression, you would see the cut in the genital area or stomach and neck. The cut on the eye is just unfortunate mishap. Rats need to go through these steps to figure out who will be boss.
Give them some time. You being in University means you are an adult and you need to explain this fact to your parents. This is the animal world and that's how they work. Also, pets are not disposable. You can't get rid of them simply because they are stressed and need more time, love and help. Your parents sound like loving people, I'm sure they will understand this.

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

I had something similar happen...one of my boys got his ear sliced open during a rough playfight (completely accidental). The injury doesn't sound agressive at all just playfighting gone a little too rough. As for the squeaking that's normal...I have 2 boys who scream bloody murder while they are playfighting its a little scary to hear at first but once you realise no one is getting hurt then you learn to get used to it.

 

[Sam]

Second, there is a neutraceutical called L-theonine derived from green tea that is safe and calming. You can put it in the food and all the rats should calm down from it. There is a commercial product called Anxitane by Virbac used for dogs and cats that I've used with my hyperstress boy. Tests were done with up to 5000 mg daily on rats with no ill effects. (You won't use that much! But I did use a "big dog" sized tablet with Moe every day and it helped). Or if you can get the product from a health food store it is probably cheaper. (The human version might be good for your parents

Thanks for all the advice. I will definitely do some research on L- theonine and will most likely give it a try.

A cut on the eye is not really aggression. True aggression, you would see the cut in the genital area or stomach and neck. The cut on the eye is just unfortunate mishap. Rats need to go through these steps to figure out who will be boss.
Give them some time. You being in University means you are an adult and you need to explain this fact to your parents. This is the animal world and that's how they work. Also, pets are not disposable. You can't get rid of them simply because they are stressed and need more time, love and help. Your parents sound like loving people, I'm sure they will understand this.

As always, very helpful, thank you Jorats. I do understand that rats have a pecking order and that this type of thing is normal. I DEFINITELY do not believe that pets are "disposable" and am trying my very best to make everyone happy. My parents are understanding people. It was just a ... gruesome and shocking scene... Also, I understand that true aggression is an injury to the genital area, stomach, or neck.

I would like to point out something that I noticed the new boy doing to my injured rat: Although they are usually cuddling, sometimes, my injured rat (before the injury) will go up and sniff the male and he will snap at her. He has bitten her face before which is why think that this injury might have come from him (but I didn't see it happen so I am reserving judgment). How can I stop my male from snapping at this girl when she sniffs him? Why does he do this if he spends so much time cuddling with her?


The vet strongly believes that she will loose the eye, which, in itself, isn't something I'm worried about. I'm more concerned about that area being more prone to infections or further complications.

As the vet suggested, she is isolated right now.

 

[jorats]

Your male is being dominant over her and telling her to bug off when he snaps at her, so he's the one you need to watch. But in time they seem to settle down and stop the snapping. That could be why she got her eye cut.
We've got a few people here with their rats needing their eye removed, it heals quite fast and no future issues with it either.

 

[rodentmama]

No guarantees when they are on their own, but I watch mine in free play and reprimand Moe or Spike if they snap. Now I just say "Moe stop!" and I don't have to go in and shove him, he just looks at me with the fish eye and takes off. Spike is a harder sell and he is smaller and sick, so I do sometimes have to separate him from the others if he is snappy. They haven't ever drawn blood but I have seen them snap at each other and I will give the agressor a push with my hand.

 

[Sam]

I woke up today to find that she has a 1/2 cm deep gash in her armpit area. How do I keep this from getting infected?

 

[victoria]

Is it deep? Or is it just the skin missing and a lot of blood? I have a girl who can be a bully and did that to my other girls after I introduced them a couple times and now again when I am trying to merge my two groups. If it's what happened with my girls, I would first and foremost give her something for the pain if she looks like she needs it. Keep it clean and dry and keep an eye out for infection, but I think it will heal on it's own. I have used Polysporin before on my rats but they really did not like it but my vet gave me Soother Plus http://www.exoticdvm.com/index.cfm?fuse ... t_id=251to use for my girls bumblefoot and it really helped. It's available without a prescription and provides a mild anesthetic effect and promotes healing. I think I paid $13 for it at my vet, not $18.

Do you still have your old rat cage? What you can try is taking out the rat that you think is the aggressor while you aren't able to supervise and putting them all together when you are. That's what I'm doing as soon as my latest injury heals *sigh* and I'm hoping it'll do the trick. The lone rat will come to realize how much he misses his girl friends and if you are consistent about removing him if he gets aggressive, he will learn not to bully. (I know you haven't seen him be aggressive, but if you do.) If you have another injury after you've taken him out, then you'll know he's not the problem. Eventually they will figure out the hierarchy and how to coexist without bloodshed and they can live together full time.

 

[smilez_n_hugs]

If anything I would just rinse the cut with a salt and water solution but other than that it shouldn't need anything else and should heal up on its own.

 

[Sam]

If anything I would just rinse the cut with a salt and water solution but other than that it shouldn't need anything else and should heal up on its own.

Okay. I just didn't know because it's quite deep. I meant to say it's 1/2 cm deep and about an inch long. It looks like someone took a good bite out of her. I rinsed it with saline solution as soon as I saw it and just wasn't sure if it was enough.

 

[Sam]

Is it deep? Or is it just the skin missing and a lot of blood? I have a girl who can be a bully and did that to my other girls after I introduced them a couple times and now again when I am trying to merge my two groups. If it's what happened with my girls, I would first and foremost give her something for the pain if she looks like she needs it. Keep it clean and dry and keep an eye out for infection, but I think it will heal on it's own. I have used Polysporin before on my rats but they really did not like it but my vet gave me Soother Plus http://www.exoticdvm.com/index.cfm?fuse ... t_id=251to use for my girls bumblefoot and it really helped. It's available without a prescription and provides a mild anesthetic effect and promotes healing. I think I paid $13 for it at my vet, not $18.

Do you still have your old rat cage? What you can try is taking out the rat that you think is the aggressor while you aren't able to supervise and putting them all together when you are. That's what I'm doing as soon as my latest injury heals *sigh* and I'm hoping it'll do the trick. The lone rat will come to realize how much he misses his girl friends and if you are consistent about removing him if he gets aggressive, he will learn not to bully. (I know you haven't seen him be aggressive, but if you do.) If you have another injury after you've taken him out, then you'll know he's not the problem. Eventually they will figure out the hierarchy and how to coexist without bloodshed and they can live together full time.

Yeah it's pretty deep. I meant to say that it's 1/2 cm deep and about 1 inch long. More than skin missing. I was wondering if Polysporin is okay to use. I had it on my finger once and I noticed that they LOVE to lick it. Do you think Soother Plus is necessary or is there enough of a chance of it just healing without infection?

It crossed my mind to separate the male for a while, but I thought this might result in them having to figure out their pecking order all over again. It didn't cross my mind that he might actually miss the girls. If I see the male doing anything near aggressive (since the first injury), he goes into his "time out tank" (empty 10 gallon fish tank) for about 5 minutes.

Thank you for all the advice

 

[jorats]

Do not use polysporin, you don't want the wound closing before it starts to heal or you'll have one huge abscess on your hands.
Just make sure it stays clean and leave it be, by tomorrow, you'll hardly notice it.

You need to take the aggressor our of the cage and start intros all over again.
How big is your cage and how many rats in there now?

Just read Victoria's reply, give that a try before separating.

 

[Sam]

Do not use polysporin, you don't want the wound closing before it starts to heal or you'll have one huge abscess on your hands.
Just make sure it stays clean and leave it be, by tomorrow, you'll hardly notice it.

You need to take the aggressor our of the cage and start intros all over again.
How big is your cage and how many rats in there now?

Just read Victoria's reply, give that a try before separating.

Okay, I've heard a lot of good and bad things about Polysporin and didn't know what to believe. I won't use it then. You said that I'll hardly notice it tomorrow but it still looks pretty much the same as yesterday, a little more closed up. It looks like someone took a really good bite out of her; it's deep. It's still an open wound. No signs of infection. I wish I could take a picture but I have no way of doing so. I am taking care of it the same way I would take care of a piercing that I want to heal over (because with closing up piercings, we also run into the problem of skin closing over resulting in absesses). Homemade saline solution (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14562) soak once in the morning and the night. Is this okay? Too much? Should I just leave it? I'm really sorry I keep bothering you about this wound, it just looks so deep and I'm terrified it's going to get infected! It seems like lots of people on this forum have dealt with wounds and absesses without too much problem and I haven't seen any signs of infection so that's why I didn't take her to the vet.



Thank you all so much, (I'm not used to this, I've been lucky enough to have very very nice rats up until now). I will do what Victoria said.

 

[xxchelle]

How big is your cage and how many rats do you have in it?

 

[jorats]

The soaking is probably keeping it from closing up and healing, although not a bad thing, it's going to be really clean. But for now, no more soaks and see if it closes up on it's own.

Any more problems with the gang?

 

[Sam]

How big is your cage and how many rats do you have in it?

Here are the dimensions. It is three cages stuck together. They are bird cages and they can get from cage to cage through a door on the sides. The shelves listed are spread throughout the two larger cages, not all in one cage:

Cage 1 depth: 22
Cage 2 width: 22

Cage 2 depth: 20
Cage 2 width: 20

Cage 3 depth: 15
Cage 3 width: 12

Shelf depth: 14
Shelf width: 12
Number of shelves this size: 3

In addition, there are three hammocks and lots of beds and boxes.

There are four rats in it now.

 

[Sam]

The soaking is probably keeping it from closing up and healing, although not a bad thing, it's going to be really clean. But for now, no more soaks and see if it closes up on it's own.

Any more problems with the gang?

Okay I'll stop obsessing and just let the wound be

There wasn't any problems today or last night. Everyone's asleep right now (I have the day off so they've been out for most of the day but have mostly been dozing in my bed). I'll be keeping a close eye out for any foul play when they get up.