Beryl doesn't know when to give up...(another fight, yay)

[fenshae]

*sigh* He was doing SO GOOD, too. He'd gotten to the point where now when he picks fights with Basil, he runs away and they scream at each other like the world is ending but don't actually attack. It's been months since they've drawn blood. Altogether, I'd call this progress.

Well today it didn't work out so well. In process of running away, he got his tail stuck (I have a nestle quick container zip-tied to the wall of the cage, as a hidey-hole, and he got his tail caught between the container and the cage, no idea how he managed that). Beryl has caught his tail in weird things before, because it's got a big lump in it from where his tail wound scarred over. Anyway, since he got stuck, he was then powerless to run away, and Basil (at least I'm assuming it was Basil) got him good. He got a bite to the flank, and a nasty gash up one side of his muzzle. It looks awful, but it's shallow and obviously not much point in stitching it since it's 1.) a bite wound and 2.) too wide across, I'd say it's probably...um...maybe a 1/4"?

So he'll have a pretty gnarly scar there. Gave him some baby-motrin for pain and to reduce the swelling but haven't cleaned/disinfected it yet because he's still pretty freaked out.

I just don't get these hoarding boys. Him and Stock both have the same problem -- they do absolutely fine with the guys for weeks, then all of a sudden spazz out and attack anybody who comes close. And they ALWAYS lose. Always.

Noticed today that Beryl is feeling just a little thin. I've been resisting moving him as 90% of the time he gets along fine with the rest of the guys (and like I said, we haven't had bloodshed in a long time) but if he's being bullied away from food then that's unacceptable. So I had to play some rat-tetris. Moved him in with Einstein and (for now) moved Stock in with the big boys. I'll see if Stock can behave himself. If not, I'll have to try moving Basil, and let Stock take the alpha position...but honestly I really think the only thing keeping the colony together is Basil being alpha. I suspect if Stock took over that chaos might result, seeing as Stock picks fights with *everyone*.

Gah. I just don't know what to do with these guys. A round of neuters would be ideal but I'm scared to do it, not with the track history that the hoarding rats had with their spays + Locke's sudden inexplicable death. If anybody got a neuter it'd be Basil, and see above: possible total chaos if he stepped down as alpha.

....why do rat politics have to be so insanely complicated?

 

[PitLuvs]

I have no advice, I have two alphas here, and when I plan on introducing everyone into one cage, one or both of them are getting the snip, maybe 3. Urgh.

....why do rat politics have to be so insanely complicated?

THIS made me :giggle:

 

[jorats]

I had a cage of 11 males and even a year later there would be skirmishes, some gashes and fights but I didn't do anything about it, it would always settle down and be good for another few months. This happens with males.

 

[fenshae]

Yeah...boys will be boys, I guess. Glad to know it's not just me. Like I said, if he hadn't been looking a little thin I would've left him, but I figure I'll let him heal up & put some weight back on for awhile. He gets to be a refugee with Captain Escape Artist.

Stock has managed not to fight with Basil yet. Instead, he's barricading himself into any place he can, and hissing/screeching at Basil. No boxing, no sidling, no kicking....just nose-to-nose screaming matches that lasted all. night. long. ayyy boys.

 

[jorats]

Is Basil neutered? Does Basil bother only with Beryl?

 

[fenshae]

Nope, all the boys are intact. Basil only fights with Stock and Beryl (both hoarding boys). Well, and when Einstein was first intro'd in they'd skirmish a little, but that didn't last very long. They never fight when they're out for playtime (although Stock and Beryl will box with each other when they're out together). Only ever when one of them is in their nest box and Basil comes by, they'll hiss at him and they'll have a stand-off that may or may not end in the one IN the box lunging for him, at which point Basil always comes out on top -- I've never seen him lose a fight or even run away. Guess that's why he's the alpha. What seems super ridiculous about this is that after this whole show-down, when the other rat retreats, Basil never takes over his box. And when the others try to get into HIS preferred sleeping box, he never chases them out.

But I've never noticed Beryl/Stock act the same way with Splinter or Wesley whenever THEY come close. (Stock does pick fights with them sometimes over other things, though. I've seen him literally sitting on top of Splinter, repeatedly biting his haunch. but Basil usually breaks that up it seems like. this hasn't happened in awhile)

EDIT: To further confuse me and add to the "boys will be boys" theme, I just go into the bedroom to get ready for work....and where are Basil and Stock? Piled on top of each other in Stock's chosen nestbox. aaayyy these guys are trying to drive their mama crazy. Was the whole night of screeching and hissing reeeeeally necessary to come to that conclusion? Really?

 

[jorats]

lol Sometimes rats disagree. Loudly.

 

[fenshae]

So last night Stock and Basil got into it, and I don't know if Basil bit him or if Stock caught his paw on something, but either way he got a big ol' nasty cut on his foot, between his toes. Was bleeding everywhere, looked like somebody was getting murdered.

So I say, fine, that's it, Basil's getting evicted for awhile.

To test it out and see who has problems with who, I clean out both cages, plop all 5 of the big boys into the big cage and Basil by himself in the QT cage. Now, all this time I've been reticent to do that because I figured Stock would stage a coup and be a bully to everyone. After all, when it was just the three hoarding boys they all fought constantly. When we were doing intros, Stock would pick on everybody.

I neglected to remember something I've read about, and which I've twice now seen is absolutely true. When an alpha is removed -- not succeeded, but just taken out of the equation -- the rat that takes over is the omega. Not the betas. not the gammas. The omega.

So would you believe that *Einstein* has now completely taken charge of the colony? yes. Little whiny gets-along-with-everybody Einstein was running around all night, power-grooming the others, demanding grooming, pinning, boxing. And the weirdest part of this? Not a one of them resisted this. No hissing. No screaming. No fighting. Beryl, Einstein, and Splinter are all bundled into a hammock together snoozing right now. I'm wondering if rats are more accepting of an alpha who they've all previously known in a lower rank, than being introduced to a pre-existing alpha they don't know?

Because this is actually exactly how Basil was. Before he turned into the Godfather (dear lord he's enormous) he was my nurse rat. He was the sweet little rat I'd put in a cage with one of the sick boys. He was the quiet gentle one that never started trouble. Before, Token was alpha (and before that, Ripper), and Splinter was the one who'd try to start trouble with Token. And, once Token died, Basil took over. And became almost as fat.

....ayyy rats. They fascinate and confound me!

Anyway. Happy colony is happy, for now anyway. I feel bad for Basil, since he's a rat's-rat, not a people rat. I think I might start intros with him and the babies and see how things go. But later. For awhile I'm just going to marvel at Einstein being the inexplicable new leader of the pack.

 

[jorats]

Einstein makes a good alpha. How do you know he was an omega?
Einstein was well received because he doesn't give out "I will eat you alive" signals.

 

[fenshae]

Assuming Einstein was omega because when he *did* get into a scrap with someone (usually Basil or Stock, sometimes Splinter) he would always end up on the bottom with a bite(s) on his rump. For awhile when he and Stock first moved in together he nearly always had a scab or three on his back end from the rump-bites.

My understanding from RatBehavior.org, at least, is that the goal of adult rat encounters is "protect the rump!" (which is why they'll flip over...it's not a submission so much as a rump-defense) so I figure a rat that will submit to being pinned down (on his belly) and rump-bitten must be less dominant than the others. Assuming the folks at RatBehavior have it right. of course you never know.

Still pretty baffling. Came home today and all five of them were in a cozy rat pile, snoozing away. Kind of feeling like a dummy for not having thought of this months ago.

In other news, debating what my chances are of successful integration of Basil with the babies. They are supposedly 6 months now (jeez, already?) if they really were 8 weeks when I got them. They still seem super tiny to me. Isn't that right around the time they reach social maturity/start developing a hierarchy? If so maybe I should intro them in early so they'll resist it less? I dunno. they're so tiny that Basil could seriously injure them if they got into a fight so I'm being all over-protective mama-bear. There may finally be a CN in my future, hopefully, so if I have to I can divide a double into two singles and keep two colonies.

Either way. Wish I had batteries for my camera right now because there is some serious cuteness happening in the room.

 

[jorats]

Trying to intro an alpha to 6 months old is going to be tough. 6 months is when they are in the thick of hormonal upheaval, this continued for another couple of months.

Protect the rump, that doesn't make sense to me. The reason they rub the rump, that's where a scent gland is and that's what they are trying to rub off of them. The belly is what they want to protect so when one flips, that is real submission.
He's got bites on his rump because he was being pushy which would make him more beta. The beta is always at some point trying to take over the alpha position. Omegas rarely get a beating cause they run or submit, no reason to get hurt.

 

[fenshae]

http://www.ratbehavior.org/Aggression.htm has been my source. They may have been steering me wrong

" * Offensive behavior: Used to gain access to another rat's rump or flank to inflict a bite. Such tactics include chasing, sidling, kicking, pushing and biting. Usually used by the dominant rat on subordinates.
* Defensive behavior: Used to protect one's rump from attack. Such tactics include fleeing, hiding nose-offs and boxing (interposing whiskers between attacker and rump), belly-up rolls (interposing belly between attacker and rump), and bites directed at the attacker's face."
....
"In groups of three rats, subordinates tend to employ one of two strategies in their relationship with the dominant rat. Subordinates either avoid the dominant rat or they stay close to him. "Avoiders" are called omega subordinates, and the "close-in" rats are called beta subordinates (Barnett 1975 p. 125).
Omega avoiders are more severely pummeled by the dominant rat when encountered (Blanchard & Blanchard 1990), and if free to do so omegas are more likely to emigrate from the colony (Barnett 1975 p. 125). Omegas who cannot escape may be so severely attacked and harassed that they die (Adams and Boice 1983). However, in some cases, if the dominant rat is removed, an omega subordinate may be more likely than a beta to rise to become the new dominant rat."

---
Either way, yeah, I should probably hold off with the little ones. I honestly should've done this when they were still young and thus non-hormonal, but now I'm probably going to be waiting.

 

[jorats]

I can see how some of that can happen... but not in all cases though. I wonder if they observed rats in the wild or pet rats or worse yet, lab rats.

 

[fenshae]

From what I was reading, they were domestic rats (so probably lab strain) that were put into a semi-natural condition (an outside penned-off area where they built their own burrows and had no human interaction, but were fed daily and protected from predators) and observed. At least that was the predominent study they refer to throughout, I think there were some others but my memory is a bit fuzzy.

I read the whole website a couple times over when I was working on the Nano-novel, heh.

 

[fenshae]

Apparently Einstein is still a houdini rat. Woke up sometime in the night with something furry against my hand. Pet it, felt a long scaly tail and -- sign that I'm a rat lover and not a normal person -- was immediately like "hah, hey einstein". Cuddled him for a bit (he's such a little cuddle monster) before putting him back in with a late-night snack. He just wanted to say HI MOM!

*shakes head* oy.

 

[jorats]

Aww... love that he comes visit.