Aggression, or just playing?

[DaneliDesigns]

I've got two rats; one fancy, and one dumbo. They are currently in two separate cages because I am a little concerned about their behavior towards each other.

The fancy rat, Pickle, is the sweetest little boy you'll ever meet. He loves snuggles and attention. His favorite food in the whole world is tomatoes. I gave him some today, but he actually insisted upon getting some pets before chowing down! He is also incredibly intelligent. He responds to many commands and can figure out lots of puzzles (for the reward of treats of course). He has a big two-story cage all to himself.

Pres, the dumbo, is just as sweet as Pickle, but not quite as smart. He is very food-motivated... one has to be very careful when putting fingers into his cage because he will bite them in the quick assumption that they are food. Of course, he's very apologetic once he realizes you aren't food! He can't figure out most puzzles - putting treats in a loosely closed easter egg just resulted in him chewing a giant hole in it instead of opening it! Pres is in a smaller cage, big enough but only for himself.

Currently, we have the boys conveniently set up on a little two-tier desk with their cages back to back so that they can see each other through the bars. They will often look at each other and Pres will squeak quietly, but they never seem to 'fight' through the bars.

However, when they are in Pickle's cage, Pickle seems to 'bully' Pres. He will flip him over on his back and keep him there a while, but as soon as Pres tries to leave the corner of the cage, he does it again. It always ends with Pres cowering in the corner of the top story of the cage and not coming down. There never seems to be biting, and neither of them have ever bled, but it always seems that Pickle is 'wrestling' Pres in a way, over and over until Pres just will not budge from the corner.

We have cleaned Pickle's cage thoroughly and put them in so that they would have a 'clean' smelling environment, and they have two food bowls which we've tried putting on different stories of the cage, but it seems to keep happening.

They do not fight when we have them both out to roam around freely. Pres will sometimes put his head under Pickle's belly, but Pickle will not try to flip him outside of his cage. Is Pickle just extra territorial? Are they even fighting or just playing?

 

[GrayLightNewDay]

Have you done introductions outside of the cage first?

 

[jorats]

Are they now currently living together? If not, then they should never go into each other's cage together. A cage is a big trigger for dominant behaviour. Outside of the cage, it doesn't belong to anyone so Pickle doesn't have to dominant Pres. So with these boys, you need to continue outside of cage play time and intros without any cages involved. In about a week, scrub down Pickles cage and move things around so it's unrecognizable to Pickles and move both boys in and leave them in there... How big is the cage, if the cage is too small, the boys will fight.

 

[DaneliDesigns]

So through other threads I came to the conclusion that Pickle's cage was just too small for him, especially both of them, and the ramps were wooden, so no matter how much we scrubbed, the "Pickle smell" was stuck in there. So today, we found a huge cage for a GREAT deal at Petco (don't like them too much, but they do have good sales on cages sometimes). It's actually a ferret cage but we put the ramps and things a little closer together so they can climb and such. They haven't figured it all out yet but they're having fun.

However, it still seems like Pickle is bullying Pres into a corner, despite the brand new environment. It seems to be triggered by food even though we've scrubbed their food bowls. Should we maybe try introducing them to the new cage without food first? Or is it normal for Pickle to be establishing his dominance this way? It has only been about an hour but Pres has not come out from behind the bottom ramp since Pickle first flipped him.

 

[lowrexx]

Second rat dad here!

To answer the questions, Pickle and Pres have been introduced in neutral environments many, many times. They'll snuggle with each other when we have them out on the couch, as was mentioned in the OP. We have had pickle almost a year, and pres came along about six months or so ago? So it isn't a new thing that they're together.

Before today, they were living directly next to each other, but never in the same cage, also mentioned in the OP. They have been introduced outside to each other for MONTHS. We got them a new cage, much bigger, completely new, and Pres is still being bullied into a corner.

Like Nate mentioned in the post above mine, it seems like it might be food driven?

 

[jorats]

It's very normal for Pickles to dominate. He's the resident rat. So you placed both boys in the cage to move in together and you see Pickles bullying, what does he do exactly? Also, how long before he starts to bully when in the cage? Does it start right away?

 

[DaneliDesigns]

It's very normal for Pickles to dominate. He's the resident rat. So you placed both boys in the cage to move in together and you see Pickles bullying, what does he do exactly? Also, how long before he starts to bully when in the cage? Does it start right away?

It took about fifteen minutes. Once Pickle was done exploring the new cage, he flipped Pres for a moment, and Pres has been in the corner since. The "bullying" is really just the occasional flip, and whenever Pres tries to leave the corner, Pickle gets very close to him and stares at him until Pres goes back. There is no biting or scratching, so I don't think Pickle is being aggressive, I'm just not sure when the pecking order will be established and they can both roam freely. This is what happened in the other cage as well, and it seemed to last all day, but that could have been because it was Pickle's cage and smelled so strongly of him.

 

[jorats]

It can last quite a while but I would suggest you persevere. Once Pres honours Pickles, things should settle down.
One thing you can do because you notice it's food related. Each time you give them a treat, make sure Pres eats first. Even if you have to pull out Pickles and let Pres have his food and then put Pickles back in, on a different level and have his. If you notice out right bullying from Pickles, do the time out cage. Get a very small cage with nothing inside, no food no water and put him in there for 10 minutes each time he's being an obvious bully.

 

[lowrexx]

It can last quite a while but I would suggest you persevere. Once Pres honours Pickles, things should settle down.
One thing you can do because you notice it's food related. Each time you give them a treat, make sure Pres eats first. Even if you have to pull out Pickles and let Pres have his food and then put Pickles back in, on a different level and have his. If you notice out right bullying from Pickles, do the time out cage. Get a very small cage with nothing inside, no food no water and put him in there for 10 minutes each time he's being an obvious bully.

Should we give them some time before we start doing the time out cage? How long is it acceptable for Pickle to keep bugging Pres? They just got in a nasty spat because Pres was playing with the Cheerio toy we have in there while Pickle was eating. It's back into the corner for pres...

Usually, it's just a flip, but just now, Pickle jumped on Pres' back and pushed him into the corner with his body.

 

[jorats]

Does Pres look upset? Does he sit in the corner and zone out? Does he follow Pickle's every move? Do the time out cage when you feel it's gone too far. The nasty spat you just mentioned, I would have pulled him out for a time out for 10 minutes.

 

[DaneliDesigns]

Does Pres look upset? Does he sit in the corner and zone out? Does he follow Pickle's every move? Do the time out cage when you feel it's gone too far. The nasty spat you just mentioned, I would have pulled him out for a time out for 10 minutes.

Pres doesn't seem to zone out. He watches Pickle and tries to come out and play with the cheerio toy when Pickle isn't looking. Will definitely try the time out cage with the next spat then!

 

[jorats]

Does Pres look upset? Does he sit in the corner and zone out? Does he follow Pickle's every move? Do the time out cage when you feel it's gone too far. The nasty spat you just mentioned, I would have pulled him out for a time out for 10 minutes.

Pres doesn't seem to zone out. He watches Pickle and tries to come out and play with the cheerio toy when Pickle isn't looking. Will definitely try the time out cage with the next spat then!

Oh that's really good then! So he's not like traumatized by Pickles. I bet they will settle it soon enough.

 

[lowrexx]

Pres is still confined to the corner, but they seem to be quiet on the having spats front. One thing that is strange (and cute), is that we moved Pres' food, which was on the second floor, to the bottom of the cage because Pickle was going up, getting one kernel of food, and running down tot he bottom to eat it. Plus, he was slowly knocking Pres' food bowl to the edge of the platform. About a minute later, we came across this:

It's kind of hard to see, but it's Pres' food bowl sitting on top of Pickle's, with the food having been dumped all into Pickle's bowl. More signs are pointing to food agression?

 

[jorats]

Wow what a little turd. Did he go hungry at some point. lol
The food he's got, it looks like high value food. Can you switch them to a lab block so it's not as desirable? You can add the mix in later when they are more established as a colony.

 

[lowrexx]

Wow what a little turd. Did he go hungry at some point. lol
The food he's got, it looks like high value food. Can you switch them to a lab block so it's not as desirable? You can add the mix in later when they are more established as a colony.

You'd think by the way Pickle steals food he's been starved at some point, but he's just a spoiled brat. He was our only rat for a long time, so maybe that's where sharing comes in.

Anyways, Pres is out of the corner! Pickle is out cold, and Pres is up on the third shelf checking things out. WE only had to put Pickle in the time out cage once, and he stopped outwardly bulying. Pres seems to be voulentarily in the corner. We gave him his food bowl in the corner, but the water is up on tier three. He is up there now drinking and checking out the hammock.

 

[lowrexx]

Well, we were doing okay, but Pickle has gone back to the time-out cage. It's the end of the second day they've been in a cage together, but at least things are looking betterish?

 

[jorats]

That's ok, Pickles will get the hint. It's really good that Pres is coming out of the corner once in a while. I've see rats who would not even budge to drink water or food, so your situation is going pretty good.

 

[jorats]

How's it going with the duo?

 

[DaneliDesigns]

I'm afraid of jinxing it, but they seem perfectly fine now! Both are roaming about and no one has been pinned or cornered all day. They're both eating and even snuggling up when they go to sleep at night. Looks like they established their pecking order and now things are a-okay!

Now to just get Pickle to stop sleeping in the litter tray... grooooss!

Thank you so much for your help Jo!!! I suppose we were just a little paranoid about our boys, hehe.

 

[jorats]

Aww, that's great news! There will be a hiccup or two but I wouldn't worry. Yay!