advice for newborns

[JD Cole]

Hi all, I'm back with a couple more questions.

I wasn't sure I wanted to risk infections or anything by getting my boy, Lockheed, neutered by vets who aren't familiar with rat treatment. So I let him and Mocha get to be, ahem, better friends. I figured if he could have some sons to keep him company, all would be good and I can avoid potentially adopting a cage mate he wouldn't like. He and Mocha are very friendly and affectionate toward people, so I figured they're a good match, and they made good playmates for the last several weeks. (My other girl, Cheez-its, just plain doesn't like people OR Lockheed, she keeps trying to bite him through his cage bars, and she's succeeded a couple times!).

Anyway, Mocha is now a happy mother of nine (picture of one below). She's burrowed a deep nest with some towels I gave her in the bottom of her cage to keep them all in. My question is, looking at this picture of my cages (the bottom one is where the pups are), can I leave them there since it has a 2-inch high wall at the base? Or should I move mom and babies into an aquarium? I had been planning to move her into the aquarium anyway so I could line it with towels instead of eco-bedding, but she gave birth sooner than I thought she would.

Another question is, what's the best way to introduce Lockheed to his babies? I can't let him in the girl's cage because Mocha even bites me now when I reach in there, I have to wait until she's playing outside the cage to reach in and check on the pups. Lockheed's met one of the pups already while I was holding it, but he didn't seem all that excited (it was his play time after all, couldn't be bothered with the kids, right?)

 

[SQ]

see viewtopic.php?f=26&t=17673

Please keep your boy away from the girls! Mom can get pregnant within 48 hours of giving birth which would be very unhealthy for both her and the babies.
Baby boys are separated from mom and sisters at 5 weeks of age so no more pregnancies.
Dad can likely be introduced to the babies when they are 10 weeks old. There are gradual established intro steps for introducing rats so that no one is hurt or killed. If babies are put in with an unfamiliar adult when they are too young they adult may mistake them for prey and kill them.

I hope you are prepared to keep and care for all of the rats.
It is dangerous to keep two unaltered sexes in the same household so hopefully you will get all rats of one sex "fixed" when old enough.

 

[JD Cole]

Oh yes, I do keep them separated. I don't want more than one litter, 12 rats is plenty! I meant I don't let Lockheed into Mocha's cage when she's not in it because he'd likely mark all over the bedding, and she's fidgety enough without that, I think. I thought I had read that rats were good dads... is that only if they're constantly present with the pups? Could he be a danger to the pups even though he isn't aggressive in the slightest?

I am looking forward to taking care of the youngsters, and I have some friends that might be interested in adopting a pair or two when they're old enough. They're three days old now, and I can tell that most of them are dumbo like their dad. Can't wait to see their fur patterns.

 

[jorats]

Your boy likely doesn't realize he's dad. Those pups will need to be introduced to him slowly and only when they are old enough. Dad will treat them like complete strangers so make sure to take it slow and follow all the steps.
I'd move those babies asap into an aquarium, much safer for everyone.

 

[JD Cole]

Thanks for the advice. I went ahead and lined the aquarium, got a fresh water bottle and food, then slowly moved the pups over with a towel from the cage so everything wasn't completely strange for them. Mocha was very irritated, it took 20 minutes and three banana chips to calm her down in her new home. But now she's got the babies all in the corner for nursing time. Finally, I can go to bed. :thumbup: It's gonna be real fun watching these guys grow up!

 

[Cigar]

There will still be an introduction period even if they are his kids, he has no idea. It'll be exactly the same as introducing him to a rat you would have adopted.

 

[Sorraia]

You need to get the babies off the towels. The threads in the towels can get tangled around babies and kill them. The eco-bedding is better for them, as are a number of other beddings available.

It is good you moved the babies to an aquarium instead of leaving them in that cage. The biggest problem with that cage is if mom decides to move the babies to a higher level, the babies would then be at risk of falling and getting hurt. Even if she had the babies on the bottom, doesn't mean she won't try to move them at some point.

While wild rats may live in colonies and help everyone rear their offspring, including the males helping, domestic rats are not the same as wild rats. Domestic rats may still hold some similar instincts, they are not the same in many respects. They have long been bred for qualities that are not existent or are dangerous to wild rats. Male rats can make great fathers, or they can kill babies before you can blink twice. You don't know what it will be like for your rat, so the safest bet is to pretend he might be aggressive and take it slow.

 

[Cigar]

Male rats can make great fathers, or they can kill babies before you can blink twice.

Someone here on the forum lost a baby while it was hanging out with an older rat, and I believe it was an adult male. I don't even think he intended to be aggressive but his warning bite was too strong.. RIP baby. Makes me sad just thinking about it. :sad3:

 

[daisylynn]

For future reference, breeding without knowing their blood lines is dangerous. I assume you got these rats at a pet store, so you don't know the blood lines and you don't know what runs in them. You could create very aggressive rats, or even worse get babies that are sick from the beginning. I hope your babies are ok, but you really need to think before breeding.
12 rats are a lot to handle and rats can come with very expensive vet bills. Do you have homes or cages set up for these guys?
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I've heard some really bad stories about breeders and it's easy to get overwhelmed.

 

[Sorraia]

Male rats can make great fathers, or they can kill babies before you can blink twice.

Someone here on the forum lost a baby while it was hanging out with an older rat, and I believe it was an adult male. I don't even think he intended to be aggressive but his warning bite was too strong.. RIP baby. Makes me sad just thinking about it. :sad3:

Yup, and that's the unfortunate part. :sad3:

Male rats are so much bigger than babies, they can do damage without really meaning to. Even if the rats aren't aggressive, it can be like letting a chihuahua play with a rottweiler. Both dogs may be totally friendly and not mean to harm anyone, but because of the size difference the chihuahua can be seriously injured with one poorly placed play bite.

 

[jorats]

I also want to add that female rats (not the mom) have killed babies as well. So it's best to have mom alone with them.

 

[JD Cole]

Thanks for the info, everyone. I appreciate the knowledge and experience here.

For future reference, breeding without knowing their blood lines is dangerous. I assume you got these rats at a pet store, so you don't know the blood lines and you don't know what runs in them. You could create very aggressive rats, or even worse get babies that are sick from the beginning. I hope your babies are ok, but you really need to think before breeding.
12 rats are a lot to handle and rats can come with very expensive vet bills. Do you have homes or cages set up for these guys?
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I've heard some really bad stories about breeders and it's easy to get overwhelmed.

I'm not offended. I did get them at pet stores, but I don't plan to be a "breeder". I just wanted one litter, and I'll get all the males fixed when the time comes. I've been hesitant about that with Lockheed because no vets around here have experience with rats. But I agree 12 rats is plenty. I have a few good-sized cages already, but I want to get a critter nation soon, or just build something similar myself.

I check on them a few times a day (and thank you Sorraia for suggesting I get them off towels... when I checked on them yesterday, the runt in the litter had a thread caught in her little mouth!), and I will keep an eye on their behavior. I thought that rats passed on their traits to their offspring, though. i.e., two calm rats would have calm babies, mean rats would have mean babies, etc. Mocha and Lockheed are like puppies, follow me around everywhere, always wanting to play. Although, Mocha has bitten me a few times now since she's given birth, and not when I was anywhere near her babies. She's never bitten me before, so I assume it's a mom thing and hopefully that will pass as the pups get older?

 

[mamarat]

I had a couple of moms who bit me while they were with their babies. Once the babies were grown or if they were away from the babies they didn't bite anymore. Good luck!

 

[Rachael]

JD Cole you got the mum and dad from a pet store. You don't know what health problems they have and you've bred them and passed goodess knows what onto the babies. :? Are you aware of this thread?

You clearly just wanted baby rats without considering their well being. You didn't get him neutered to live happily with the girls but you are going to neuter all of the baby boys with the vet that you don't trust? Why do you suddenly now trust the vet?

 

[Sorraia]

I thought that rats passed on their traits to their offspring, though. i.e., two calm rats would have calm babies, mean rats would have mean babies, etc. Mocha and Lockheed are like puppies, follow me around everywhere, always wanting to play. Although, Mocha has bitten me a few times now since she's given birth, and not when I was anywhere near her babies. She's never bitten me before, so I assume it's a mom thing and hopefully that will pass as the pups get older?

Genetic traits are passed on, however it is NOT as simple as "nice rats have nice babies and mean rats have mean babies". Genetics can be complicated. Some traits are simple recessives-dominant traits and involve single genes. Other traits are incompletely dominant, sex-influenced, or sex-linked, other traits are polygenic and involve multiple genes.

Even single-gene, simple recessive-dominant traits are not so simple. Just because you see a simple dominant trait, such as agouti, does NOT mean you will only get agouti. It also depends what else is lurking the "background" so to speak. That animal could be heterozygous. A heterozygous agouti could produce black and agouti, even though black is recessive to agouti. That animal could be carrying recessive genes, unexpressed. If that heterozygous agouti were also carrying blue, it could produce agouti, black, blue agouti, and blue. The animal could also have dominant genes that were unexpressed, such as merle or pearl which only express on mink colors.

Some traits can also change with age. Temperament, for example, can change. A male may be sweet and loving as a baby, but he hits the 6-8 months range and suddenly becomes a hormonal monster. That trait IS hereditable and can be passed on to his offspring. If Lockhead is less than 6-8 months of age, he can very easily become aggressive when he hits that stage and becomes hormonal. If that happens, you have now risked producing an entire litter of babies that will become hormonal monsters at 6-8 months of age (this trait is sex-influenced and more typical in males, however it can happen in females and can be passed on by females). There are other traits you could have reproduced unknowingly as well, traits that are fatal, such as megacolon. Megacolon most commonly occurs on animals that are called "high white", however it has also occurred in solid colored animals from "high-white" lines. Without knowing the lines, you don't know if megacolon has occurred and whether or not you are reproducing it by breeding two seemingly "safe" rats. For these reasons it is important to KNOW the bloodlines well before breeding any animal, even IF it is "just" for one litter.

Anyone interested in breeding rats should go to a rescue first. Ask to foster a mom and babies, ask to adopt that mom and keep those babies. That way you are saving lives, rather than producing unknowns.

 

[Cigar]

If genetics were that black and white we could all be breeders but Sorraia explained it perfectly. I sincerely hope that there's nothing lurking in the shadows to affect their health or behavior.. without an experienced vet it could be a very sad outcome for them.

I do want to say that no one is trying to beat you down or chase you away but we're all truly, deeply hurt and sad that you bred your rats knowing that this is a rescue forum. We could pull up a hundred heartbreaking rescue threads and find you a hundred homeless rats in a heartbeat.. I think everyone here has at least one rat with persistent health problems caused by genetics and it pains us. Alot.

 

[jorats]

I think it's very smart of you to get all the males neutered when you are able too. That will definitely make things easier as well as help out should any of the rats become aggressive.
Any chance of getting pics?

 

[Sorraia]

So how are these babies doing now?